Opinion
Shaping identity in Poland
Zevulun Orlev
Published: 17.04.07, 01:32
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16 Talkbacks for this article
1. Maybe.
Leah ,   Canada   (04.17.07)
I agree - in theory. A vist to the concentration camps can be a life changing experience - it was for me, as a Universtiy student who participated in the March of the Living in 2005. But I went as a mature adult who had studied the Holocaust at a University level, who had done research and conducted interviews with survivors and felt myself to have a pretty good understanding of both the Holocaust and the aims of the March. But on Yom Ha'Shoah, attending a memorial service at Auschwitz with 18,000 other Jews, mostly teenagers, I saw some of the most disgusting displays of disrespect - teens (Israelis included) smoking, throwing garbage on the ground...in front of thousands of survivors. Even on my trip there were the people who were more interested in visiting the night clubs in Warsaw than any of the places we went to, who spent more time complaining about their cold than listening to the survivors who were telling their stories. So yes, I think the March can be a powerful learning tool - but only for the right people, and only when they are ready to learn the lessons.
2. polish death camps
Michelle Wayne   (04.17.07)
I would like to ask why print Polish death camps why not German natzi death camps in Poland, I'm Jewish emigrant from Poland and I think it's not fair seeng that many Polish peaple help jews to survive the war.
3. My Children Will NEVER Visit Poland, G-d Willing
Yishai Kohen ,   YeShA, Israel   (04.17.07)
Let's leave aside that they are Kohanim and therefore can't go anyway. Our identity as Jews is NOT because of others' persecution of us (just as their definition of who is a Jew is not ours). This is a "Judaism" that cannot survive. This is not who we are or what we are. Besides, leaving the Holy Land of Israel is forbidden- certainly for such shtut.
4. #3: Why is it forbidden to leave the holy land
Abdullah ,   EuMe   (04.17.07)
5. Never go there
Piotr Przybysz ,   Dublin, Ireland   (04.17.07)
I am a Polish Jew living abroad because of the Polish antisemitism and discrimination I had to go through since I was born. I was attacked by a prist in Krakow last year just because I was wearing a Magen David. I don't think that the camps are a good reason enough to go to this horrable country, despite the need for the promotion of Holocaust awarness that can be done otherwise.
6. Avoid Poland !!
Jakub ,   Warsaw   (04.18.07)
Ya never go to Poland ! I know that if you are a Jew, immigration shaves your head bold at the arrival. People will chase you with dogs all the time and you will be probably killed within a week. Avoid Poland and go to friendly France instead!
7. To Piotr, #5
David ,   NY, USA   (04.18.07)
I visited both countries last year: Israel and Poland and my memories from Poland are much better than from Israel. If Poland was so bad for Jews why the Jewish culture flourished there over centuries? Why Jews prosecuted in other European countries were looking for shelter there? My family survived holocaust because of Polish Christians' help. We all know about antisemitism and discrimination we sometimes experience around the world, but check current statistics about France or Germany before complaining about Poland. And one more thing, I DO NOT BELIEVE that priest in Krakow attacked you just because of a Magen David.
8. WHO IS IN DENIAL?
al mann ,   Jerusalem,Israel   (04.18.07)
Has any survivor of the Holocaust, who threw away his phylacteries, prayer shawl, and prayerbook in an effort to express anger at what happened, ever asked survivors of the Holocaust why they still pray three times a day, still wear phylacteries, a prayer shawl, and never discarded their prayer books? It is obvious that nothing has been learned from the Holocaust on a spiritual level. As an historic event, we are made aware of the numbers of those slaughtered in viscious ways. We see the concentration camps and, perhaps cry a bit. Then we return to Israel and cannot accept those who still wear holy items, still go to synagogue, learn Talmud, keep kosher, and perform all the other laws the Torah requires of us. Those in denial of their past are doomed but, as in the Holocaust, others are killed with them. We are one people and not sects as in ancient times. Perhaps it was the dissident Essenes and Sadducees which brought about the downfall of Ancient Israel. These groups also broke away from the correct interpretation of the law and went their own way in the name of reform and modernism. Those in denial need to study more than the Holocaust but it's lack of correct spirituality as a probable cause. It's happening here, in Israel, in the place which we still must earn by keeping the law. I wonder what will have to happen to return everyone to their original sources and sense of mission as outlined in the Torah, which many here have rejected in the name of modernism. Learning should not only be intellectual but also include the emotional experience. How can we relive the redemption from Egypt, the Revelation at Mount Sinai, the conquests of Joshua, the establishment of the mishkan in the desert and the Temple in Jerusalem. How can we relive the persecution and potential holocaust in ancient persia, the Crusades etc. After learning and internalizing these historical events can any still remain in denial?
9. To David
Piotr Przybysz ,   Dublin, Ireland   (04.18.07)
Bear in mind that I have actually been raised in Poland and had more chances to be abused than a random person just visiting for few days and this was just one of the stories. Poland had been a country where many cultures flourished over centuries due to liberal politics of the kings. It used to be the oldest democracy in the world. These times are long gone though. Communism and poverty deprived people of these values. It is now country where it is ok for the father of the minister and a European MP to publish a book claiming that Jews are "biologically" different from "gentiles". It is a country of institutional racism where it is not possible to live a normal life as a Jew unless you pretend you are not who you are. There were as many people helping the Jews during the Holocaust as there were people helping the Nazis (if not more).
10. to Peter, #9
David ,   NY, USA   (04.19.07)
1. In your first post you said "Never go there" and I responded to it by comparing my last visit to Poland and Israel. Also I asked you to check the anti-Semitism statistics for other European countries. Have you done it? 2. The book you are referring to wasn't published in Poland and was immediately condemned by polish government and president. 3. Any example of “institutional racism" (if you are able to find one) you can report to European Parliament. 4. You said that in Poland you had to pretend that you are not who you are. Go to Israel and try to live openly as Christian, Muslim or even as secular Jew. 5. When talking about some Poles "helping the Nazis" you should remember about "Judenrat" and "Judischer Ordnungsdienst". 6. You said that you have actually been raised in Poland. I've been raised there as well so I know what I'm talking about. 7. I see you as a typical example of frustrated Pole blaming (in your case) the religion for some of your problems. I know many Poles (non-Jews) in US who criticize Poland for various reasons ("lack of normal life" is very common) and also say "Never go there".
11. Hey Piotr ! :)
Jack ,   Gdansk   (04.19.07)
The nonsense you are posting here is so ridiculous that you make me laugh. So priest beat you up because you where Jewish, ha ? Good one !
12. Shaping hatred
Paul ,   Australia   (04.20.07)
Well, well, well… Interesting is the way Orlev indoctrinates the youngsters. According to his script the lesson from the Holocaust is to generate hatred towards the World as very danger place to live for every Jew. The only safe country for the Jews is then …Israel. Any lesson how the German democratic nation changed into army of willing executioners is absolutely not desirable… (maybe also dangerous) ... interesting… These trips are very poor festivities of hatred under false pretences.
13. Aboyt this priest to Piotr Przybysz
matrek ,   Key West, FL, USA   (05.03.07)
How did this priest attack you and why? Did you call polish Police? If not, why? He could be even arrested, don't you think?
14. I can't belive that!!!
matrek ,   Key West, FL, USA   (05.03.07)
Why did you write that a such a stupid think?! If you ever been in Poland, you know very, well this is disgust lie! Yes, go ahead to France, where French Vichy's Police has officialy colaborated with Germany and helped him to look for a Jews and send them to Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek.
15. Piotr
matrek ,   Key West, FL, USA   (05.03.07)
Please, tell us - why current polish Jews, who currently still live in Poland don't have same like yours opinion about today's Poland? Another question - if your stories are trouth, how it's possible, they are still alive in that country? How it happend, thay are still not killed?
16. Death camps wasn't polish
matrek ,   Key West, FL, USA   (05.03.07)
All over the world, Auschwitz has become a symbol of terror, genocide, and the Holocaust. It was established by the Germans in the suburbs of the city of Oswiecim which, like other parts of Poland, was occupied by the Germans during the Second World War. The name of the city of Oswiecim was changed to Auschwitz, which became the name of the camp as well. June 14, 1940, when the first transport of Polish political prisoner deportees arrived in Auschwitz, is regarded as the date when it began to function. Over the following years, the camp was expanded and consisted of three main parts: Auschwitz I, Auschwitz II-Birkenau, and Auschwitz III-Monowitz. It also had over 40 sub-camps. At first, Poles were imprisoned and died in the camp. Afterwards, Soviet prisoners of war, Gypsies, and prisoners of other nationalities were also incarcerated there. Beginning in 1942, the camp became the site of the greatest mass murder in the history of humanity, which was committed against the European Jews as part of Hitler's plan for the complete destruction of that people.
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