Jewish Scene
Memorial ceremony excludes bereaved father
Itamar Eichner
Published: 22.04.07, 17:33
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31. #5 And you know it Antonio, for you are God.
AK   (04.22.07)
Who are you to determine what true Judaism is? Who gave you the mandate, God?
32. Schmuel Ramat Gan # 12
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.22.07)
And why not allow a priest if there is a non Jew who gave his life for Israel ? Remember , today is the memory day for the fallen soldiers . Orthodox , reforms , secular , Druze and even non Jews . The orthodox have no monopol on the deaths , they should be ashamed of their behaviour .
33. No thank you, Ellen #25
JPS ,   Efrat, Israel   (04.22.07)
Rabbi Boyden earned the title according to the traditions of the Reform movement. You might not like them, but to his community he's a rabbi just as an orthodox rabbi is a rabbi in my community. As a member of an orthodox community here in Israel, I do not accept your remote-control armchair criticism of a bereaved father from your cozy chair in Florida. I don't know what English dictionary you read, but Boyden was snubbed bigtime. If you want to bitch about it, you're welcome to make aliya, come over here, and send your own kids to the army like we do.
34. Liberal Judaism are practicing "Bark Mitzvah" for theirs dog
Ivan ,   Belgium   (04.22.07)
Liberal Judaism are practicing "Bark Mitzvah" for theirs pet dog at their temple complete with a tallit and kipah for the dog, a sermon and appropriate Gifts. See Going to the Dogs http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2217/
35. to the other Drew
Drew ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (04.22.07)
I think YOUR comments are disgusting. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I'm ashamed to have you share my name....
36. # 30
Chaim   (04.22.07)
Who is a Jew is up to Hashem. Who is Jewish? Someone who accepts Torah SheBichtav AND Torah SHeBa'al Peh. Reform don't accept Torah Sheba'al Peh. Enough said. Mickey Boyden is no differnt than any other CHILONI that has served this country and lost a son in war.
37. Very sad
Josh ,   stavrapol Russia   (04.22.07)
This is Very Sad, we wish this would never happen! I am trying to understand, why would a Reform Rabbi want to speak at such an event, doesn't that refute what reform Jews are all about! As to the Religiuos rabbis, isn't a reform Jew, whos mother was Jewish still a Jew, just let the man talk about his son, and family, why is that a big issue, lets be brothers. we all know reform has no true meaning, it means, lets be free lets have fun, and do everything the way we want. (lets reform it!) so when a reform man gets up and speaks from his heart, (from his soul), just let the man talk, he is Jewish after all, and what he is saying is not realy at all reform, its just talking from his soul!
38. Rabbi Boyden
Max ,   England   (04.22.07)
Rabbi Boyden officiated at my son's Bar Mitzvah. His consideration for all involved, including the orthodox, was of the highest order and not just a matter of form - it came from the heart. The fact is that a memorial organisation for those whose experience of matters of life and death is personal and concentrated chose Rabbi Boyden for their commemoration on the day. That choice is worthy of respect. A community which shows more tolerance for the pronouncements of characters such as Rabbis Mordechai and Shmuel Eliyahu would, rather than criticise Rabbi Boyden, do better to learn from his humanity and sense of decency. And it grieves me that a municipality has decided to institutionalise the division of a community rather than its coming together on this solemn day.
39. Serious issue
Steve ,   USA   (04.22.07)
B"H It is a serious issue that the man is not able to mourn his son. He was only able to do so privately, but not with the title "reform rabbi" which indicates disrespect to the "orthodox rabbi" standards. I feel sad for this man, but I see a sin in the actions of Yad Labanim. They offered something that was not theirs to offer, and the offer was not completely made up-front. In other words, this man had no information that he would be only able to participate as an individual and without his title "reform rabbi" as I understand the article. This is a sin, and it is not on the part of Micky Boyden. Why invite someone when he is not going to be able to fully participate as he is? The city is responsible to provide protection for the ceremony as well as to eclude those who might cause a commotion, with full police guard to ensure there is no disturbance. Since this offer was made by the city, it is the responsibility of the city to provide according to what was promised. His prayer is their responsibility and they have to live up to it. Otherwise the city is the one that is "reforming" its promise and is no better than an individual who reforms his religion and teaches it in that altered fashion.
40. He was not EXCLUDED
Aviva ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (04.22.07)
He was invited to participate as a bereaved parent. Instead, he chose to make a "statement" about his status as a clergyman. He is using his son's dead body as a platform to stand on, like Cindy Sheehan. I find that far more disgusting than the alleged snubbing by Orthodox.
41. AN ABOLUTE DISGRACE
Merle ,   Raanana, Israel   (04.22.07)
Especially since so many "brave" right wing nutso haredim are so eager to have everybody else's children donkey in their messiah, while they avoid military service for their own children. Bitterly disgraceful Hod Hasharon!!!
42. Digusting
Paul Usiskin ,   London UK   (04.22.07)
As a former IDF soldier who loost friends and relatives in Israel's wars, I am disgusted at this narrow minded, paranoid behaviour. We talk a lot about the 'ulitmate sacrifice' today - its a phrase repated throughout this day and its being repeated as I write this at Binyanei Haooma. It doesn't say 'the ultimate sacrifice' counts only if you are an orthodox Jew. It says it for the 'ultimate sacrfice' of every bereaved family in the state of Israel - every family. And some haredi rabbi who has probably never worn the uniform of Zahal can determine who can mark the 'ultimate sacrifice' and who cannot?
43. Pathetic
Miriam W. ,   Kfar Sava, Israel   (04.22.07)
As if this day wasn't sad enough.
44. #31, yes, it in fact it was God!
Antonio ,   Haifa   (04.22.07)
Laws of Judaism are written in Judaism's holy books. BTW, I'm as secular as secular gets. I just don't like impostors. Fake is fake is fake. Fake math is fake math, and fake "Reform" Judaism is fake Judaism.
45. How sad!
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (04.22.07)
This man's son died in the service of his country. Why? So someone of a different religious persuasion has the freedom to insult his father?Something is very, very wrong with that picture. Doesn't the spirit of the law take precedence over the letter? My brother-in-law owned a successful restaurant in Birmingham, AL. He was a Baptist of some sort and, on the surface, a pretty ornery cuss. After he died, the Catholic bishop of the diocese approached a very surprised family and requested to conduct the funeral services. Unbeknownst to family and friends, this ornery, Baptist cuss had been, for years and years, providing the week-end meals for a Catholic retirement home. None of his tax records showed a write-off for this, either. Suffice it to say, brother-in-law was buried by a Catholic bishop to the consternation of friends, Baptists and Catholics alike, breaking who knows how many "rules." After years of digging for an explanation, the widow found out that her late husband's best buddy in Korea had been killed. He happened to have been a Catholic. God, the universe, call it what you will, works in mysterious ways, and maybe that should be taken to heart by everybody. And just to lighten the mood: Muldoon lived alone in the Irish countryside with only a pet dog for company. One day the dog died, and Muldoon, utterly distraught, went to the parish priest and asked, "Father, me dog is dead. Could ya' be saying' a mass for the poor thing?" Father Patrick replied, "I'm afraid not. We can't have services for an animal in the church. But there are some Jews down the road, and there's no tellin' what they believe. Maybe they'll do something for the creature." Muldoon said, "I'll go right away, Father. Do ya' think $20,000 is enough to donate to their temple for the service?" Father Patrick exclaimed, "Sweet Mary, Mother of Jesus! Why didn't ya tell me the dog was Catholic?
46. WE MUST SEPERATE A BEREAVED PARENT FROM TORAH
..............DACON9   (04.22.07)
REFORM BY ITS DOCTRINE IS NOT FOLLOWING TORAH. CONSERVATIVE BY ITS DOCTRINE IS NOT FOLLOWING TORAH. THOSE LABELS ARE ""CREATED'" TO SUPPOSEDLY 'ABSOLVE' THOSE FOLLOWERS OF THOSE SECTS FROM ANY GUILT OF *NOT FOLLOWING TORAH.. NOW REALLY,,,, IF YOU ARE A BELIEVER OF TORAH AS HANDED DOWN BY MOSES, THEN HOW CAN REFORM OR CONSERVATIVE ALTER AND MODERNIZE 'GD'S WORDS? HOW CAN THEY VOTE THAT 'GD' IS WRONG. HOW CAN THEY SAY THAT THEY. THE REFORMED AND CONSERVATIVE ARE RIGHT OVER 'GDS' DECISION. C'MON LETS BE REAL.... BECAUSE ONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A TORAH ORTHODOX JEW AND DOESNT FOLLOW ALL THE LAWS,,, HE IS A EVIL PERSON? BECAUSE HE RECOGNIZES 'GD'S WORDS , IS TRUTHFUL TO HIMSELF AND THE HEAVENS THAT HE TRIES AND TRIES ...AND FAILED BUT WILL IMPROVE A LITLLE AT A TIME,,THAT IS WRONG? MORE WRONG THAN THE REFORMED THAT ALTER TORAH TO FIT HIS OWN WEAKNESS. 'G'D IS WRONG ? 'GDS' WORDS ARE OLD FASHION AND NEED TO BE MODERNIZED,,,? THOSE PEOPLE ARE RIGHTOUS? ISNT THIS WHAT JEUS DID? ISNT THIS WHAT XTIANS DO? ISNT THIS WHAT ISLAM DOES MAKE GD IN 'THEIR' IMAGE RATHER THAN MAN IN 'GDS IMAGE ISNT THIS WHAT HERETICS DO ALL THE TIME? THE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT AND 'GD' IS WRONG? WHILE WE ALL CRY FOR ANY PARENT THAT LOSES A CHILD... THAT SHOULD NOT BE MIXED WITH OBSERVANCE OF TORAH. MAY HIS SON RISE TO THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF HEAVEN. AND ALL THOSE THAT LOST THEIR LIFES FOR ISRAEL RISE ABOVE . I CRY FOR THE PARENTS AND FAMILIES AND I CRY FOR ISRAEL BECAUSE OF THOSE THAT CHANGE TORAH,, CAUSING A GREATER PAIN FOR ALL OF ISRAEL AS A NATION. I CRY FOR ISRAEL BECAUSE OF IGNORANT FOOLISH LEADERS LIKE OLMERT PERETZ AND PERES THAT DREAMS DO NOT FIT THE REALITIES. I CRY BECAUSE YOU ISRAELIS ARE TIRED OF WINNING.. AND CLOSE YOUR EYES TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE LOSING WHEN YOU DONT WIN YOU FALL BEHIND AND GIVES STRENGTH TO YOUR ENEMIES.... I CRY BECAUSE ISRAEL FORGOT HOW TO WIN
47. More disgusting actions from this country's....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (04.22.07)
purportedly religious community. I am ashamed of them (as I repeatedly am) as I am of the weak-tit Hod Hasharon council. Let their asses stay home - I'd rather see Rabbi Boyden on the bima.
48. Listen People!!!!
Ilana ,   galut   (04.22.07)
I do not agree with the Reform who disregard G-d's Laws, nor do I agree with the Orthodox who added countless man made laws. But....! ....since Eretz Yisrael is surrounded by enemies determined to destroy medinat Yisrael, isn't it more important that we, Am Yisrael, concentrate our energies on defending Our Land, the ONLY Jewish country on the planet? We can sort out our other differences later. B'Shalom
49. #39 - cut the bull-sh_ _ Steve....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (04.22.07)
the SIN is on the part of purportedly religious Jews who think they get to decide who gets included or excluded in OUR religious lives. Are you one of those people who would make those decisions for other Jews? The only sin H.Hasharon committed was caving into their threats.
50. #40 - what a truly disgusting comment....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (04.22.07)
51. #29 - "most of the fallen sons are orthodox....."
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (04.22.07)
Ok, that's a lie. Most of the fallen sons of this country from day 1 have been secular zionists. At least talk the truth and give credit where credit was due. Show me the percentage of orthodox IDF personnel there were before 1967. 2%? 3%? What are the numbers? I bet they were really small. Insignificant I would even venture to guess.
52. Sorry , no such thing as a Reform Rabbi
S Judah ,   london   (04.22.07)
I am sorry for the breaved father and family and we should all honor his brave son. May Hashem look after his Neshama. The issue of a Father honoring his son is one thing, the issue of a Reform Rabbi is another. The way i see it is this, the term Rabbi should only apply to the teacher who believes in the Torah, The Talmud and the Halacha. Reform fails this test - so what is the point of this discussion.
53. some people
velvel ,   decatur, georgia   (04.23.07)
perhaps their big problem is that they are so insecure in their beliefs that they cannot defend them without trying to stomp on the beliefs of others...this sadness has always reminded me of the wars between catholics and protestants and their beliefs that only they have the road to Hashem. When Moschiach comes there will be a lot of folk with explaining to do. The Haredim need to read over the laws for Noachide and then remember that were it not for the non-Haredi they would not have a place to will the world back to the 1700s and 1800s.
54. #51, show us what percent of them were "Reform"
Antonio ,   Haifa   (04.22.07)
Surely they were secular--that is people who either don't follow religion or don't believe in it, or both. But they knew what Judaism was and didn't try to replace it with some made up religion of dowhateveryouwant. Dowhateveryouwant is not Judaism. Yeah, and for the record, I'm secular, and don't even keep kosher. I'm just not being a liar or a hypocrite like the "Reform", so I won't be calling the way I live "Judaism".
55. 51 Andy - you are wrong.
S Judah ,   london   (04.23.07)
Most of those who fallen in recent times are Mizrahi/Sephardi to whom the application of the term secular is down right stupid. Sephardim have an Orthodox tradition.
56. What is a rabbi?
Michael ,   Wisconsin   (04.23.07)
You keep saying reform is not ok, but where in the torah does it say what makes a rabbi? If you claim oral tradition, why can't reform? and at the end of the day who are the better people/jews? this reform rabbi or the orthos? Also by your "follow the torah" claim, are the karites better jews then the hardi?
57. Re #14. Not asking you to be tolerant but asking city
Steve ,   USA   (04.23.07)
B"H The city had reportedly made a promise. Torah law is whether it is for good or bad, one is obligated to carry out what one promises. That is not say that the Orthodox should not be outraged that the city chose a person who calls himself a Reform Rabbi to perform the service, slighting them. There can be outrage. But that outrage should not be directed at the father who is mourning a son who faught to defend the lives of Jews. He was invited according to the article with the knowledge that he calls himself a "reform Rabbi". That invitation was problematic if the city was not willing to live up to it including given him the good treatment of a guest. The anger should be directed against the city and not the individual who was invited, since the city extended the invitation and the man did not impose himself on the city. By all means protest the city for having done such a thing. But leave the man out of it if the facts of the article are correct.
58. Gosh folks!
John ,   USA   (04.23.07)
Does obeying mitzvot via a form of coercion bring a person closer to G-d and His neighbors? Of course not...it depends on their conscience (presumption of guilt within law)? THATS WHAT YOU HAVE POLICE FOR (when all else fails they ENFORCE LAW). Stop this please.
59. There is a reason why this form of discrimination
John ,   USA   (04.23.07)
is not based in Halacha.
60. #50 Andy, what a truly disgusting comment....
Aviva ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (04.23.07)
Your talkback #10, on this page: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3390761,00.html
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