Jewish Scene  Uri Orbach
A two-way deal
Uri Orbach
Published: 29.04.07, 16:31
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
71 Talkbacks for this article
1. This is not called "thriving"!
Dovy ,   Toronto   (04.29.07)
This is called cooptation to idol worship. In ancient times there were also Jewish leaders who were very religious who coopted Jews into serving idolatry. Today they are the leaders of "Haredi/Eyda Haredis" Jewry who are the wolves in sheeps clothing!
2. Religion expanding
Rami ,   Antwerp Belgium   (04.29.07)
never was there more torah learning then now in Israel, and never was there more corruption violence and bad morale feelings than now, all over the world is the same, look for yourself the more religion the more violence, it's easy to check
3. The haridim should admit but will they open their mouth..
ben ,   singapore   (04.29.07)
and the word : Thank you to the IDF ? You know the answer ! As for me and my house. i will say : Thank you to the IDF and the Zionism :)
4. SICK, how can you clump every single observant Jew
Saul ,   Eretz Yisrael   (04.29.07)
Not every observant Jew is from Europe, not every observant Jew doesnt work, not all observant Jews wear black hats. So stop clumping us all together. Sheeesh!
5. The Author Has It Backwards
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (04.29.07)
"Torah world thrives due to Zionist state" The correct statement is "Zionist state thrives because of the Torah world." In reality, our Sages have already said, "Im ein Kemach ein Torah, im ein Torah ein Kemach" which means without one there isn't the other. If our author wants Hareidim to have respect for "Zionists" then it is about time that Zionists had respect for Hareidim, as well and acknowledge their dedication to Torah learning without which Torah education would collapse.
6. I've often thought........
Bill Pearlman ,   new york, NY   (04.29.07)
that Ben Gurion put this system into place because first, it was just a couple of hundred guys. And Second, that all the great centers of learning in Europe had been wiped out by the Germans. And he thought, why not? But it's become a scam at this point. I get appeals all the time from these yeshiva's. How many brilliant Torah scholars can there be?. Not the numbers that currently reside in Israeli yeshivas. Right now, my contributions go to the Friends of the IDF. I believe they call it th AWIS in Israel. Those are the guys that hold the line and their the ones that should get the help.
7. like always...great read:)
oritush   (04.29.07)
uri my man...lets see how many haters r gona still have negative talkbacks about u--ignore them...u rock man!!! ps: glad to hear yo more intellegent female partner is back on the show-u guys crack us up....the other wench was really not up to par (she just wasnt smart enough)
8. Israel, Torah, and Observance
learnerd ,   true torah   (04.29.07)
Let me tell you a story that I was a part of (first hand knowledge) All know that after the State of Israel was established the Satmer sect led by their Rabbi Yoel Titelbaum was an ardent anti State of Israel, non the less he loved the land of Israel in fact he made numerous visits to Israel with great fanfare. One day during a annual visit to Florida, he stayed by a personal friend known as Hashue Moskowitz who also considered me as his friend, The then head of the Neturay Karta came to pay the Rabbi a visit, and to show the Rabbi his devotion to the anti Israel stance , he went on a diatribe denouncing the State of Israel, the Satmaer Rabbi getting tired of his tirade, asked him the following question, who is guarding the State of Israel borders, the NK response was the IDF, Rabbi Titelbaum got up and told him to please leave as he is just as Zionist as the rest, the NK’s response why is he accused of such, Rabbi Titelbaum answered him, if your response was G-D then I would have tolerated your tirade, but you trust your wellbeing to the IDF you owe your allegiance to them. I am going to give you my understanding of the apparent internal conflict that certain segments of the Orthodox community has with the State of Israel, it is caused mainly by a lack of education, they have been brainwashed into believing that Israel must be governed only according to their version of just what the Torah direction is, it cannot tolerate any secular ideology, if they were educated in true history of the life and times of the Jews during the period of Joshua until way after the destruction of the second temple they would be extremely disappointed as the conduct that they deem to be a most important element was never adopted by a majority of the Jews of that period, the real dispute is which is more important, the preservation of the body or the purity of the soul, according to their version of religion it is their way or you are an agnostic. And if you stray from the straight and narrow your soul is lost. Zionism is all encompassing and not strictly a religious oriented ideology.
9. #5 Reuven Brauner, as usual, right on!! Kol Hakavod to you!!
David E. ,   Jerusalem   (04.29.07)
And thanks for defending the Torah world in Israel.
10. miracles
hanina   (04.29.07)
if women can study torah at night and they have a houseful of guests and children, so too can these men get a job. Lots of observant jews work and study. The miracle is balancing your life with everything in it.
11. Brauner
Enough of your baseless nonsense already, give it up. They are useless, they are pathetic, they contribute nothing to Judaism or to the State, they just take. Life is a one way street for these people and one way streets do not work, you always arrive at a dead end.
12. Received 174 emails... : - o
ben ,   singapore   (04.29.07)
asking if i am one of those neturei K fellows. Give me a break. I shave everyday. I am a bad orthodox . G-d give me a break ! I will never joint the naturei bunch . No way ! BTW to all those 174 emailers, thanks for all the concerns ,I am not religious, I always get lectures from the learned Rabbi.I think He hates me more most of the time then he loves me. :)))
13. #11 If "they contribute nothing to Judaism"
David E. ,   Jerusalem   (04.29.07)
who does? You, certainly not. Thanks to the religious Jews for learning Torah and abiding by the Torah, that we have a state. Otherwise, what right do you have to claim that the state belongs to the us? The same Torah also has commandments that we must abide by EVEN IN ISRAEL. And if we don't, Hashem can easily (G-d forbid) take it away from us. So all you seculars must thank the religious Jews who abide by G-d's Laws and commandments, and are thus saving and securing the state of Israel.
14. NON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!
YB ,   NJ   (04.29.07)
The so called Zionist state is ANTI TORAH.... How could you say that the Torah world owes Zionism a thank you? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!!! Thank G-D it's thriving DESPITE ZIONISM
15. A two-way lose
Atilla Karagözoğlu   (04.29.07)
1. Haradim's way 2. The Soldier's way *** Do below. than The God (G-d) dont punish, again. 1. dont terrorise, 2. dont steal, 3. dont rape, 4. have respect for your own, 5. have respect for others 6. Do first 5 according to The God (G-d) 's order NOT ACCORDING TO YOUR MIND. you have a confuse mind.
16. #11
moshe ,   israel   (04.29.07)
Funny that they haven't reached that 'dead end' after thousands of years. Something tells me that their way of life will be around for eternity!-not a bad dead end to have!!
17. Here is the news
Avi ,   Israel   (04.29.07)
There is no such thing as God, never was never will be. Now you can all write here about my stupidity and my evilness and condemn me for eternal life of hell, well I have heard it all before. You can ignore the truth and call me a chilony or an atheist, but you know deep down in your heart that I am right and that you're all flogging a dead horse o' well the truth hurts, deal with it.....
18. #8 - and more
steve ,   bp   (04.29.07)
Great story - I do not understand what you wrote in the second half. My opinion - Isreal has been good for torah, and yes, we do owe an inadvertent thank you to the rest of the country. However - had the zionist forfathers known this would happen they would have tried to stop it. We all know they were anti torah and there is no point trying to rewrite history.
19. #6 Bill
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (04.29.07)
You are correct that Ben Gurion gave deferments to yeshiva students because there were only 400 in the entire country, and BG believed they would eventually become extinct.
20. uri orbach
uri ,   israel   (04.29.07)
You are an insult to the national religious sector. Thank you yeshiva students for learning Torah- we DO believe that this state is a miracle!! And we need all the merits we can get. And Uri- try rid yourself of your haughtiness-stick to articles concerning Iran!
21. # 17
Well said
22. explaining 2nd part of #8
to Steve #18 ,   Love the Land & IDF   (04.29.07)
Judaism as we know and understand it, in this generation is not governed by a single theology, it is so varied that even in any congregation there are numerous groups each is clamoring for dominance, hence the constant establishment of newly formed congregations. The Chasidic movement is fractured into so many separate groups that there is no single factor that they all subscribe to, yes it is argued they are adherence of the Torah Laws but do they acknowledge or even know the most important elements that is required of them, quite a large number even if they do know just ignore them. I was once asked if a person violates a civil law is he also in violation of a Torah prohibition. My response was Yes but the difference between the two is, on Yom Kippur the sin against the Torah portion cannot be forgiven unless the civil portion is also rectified. One major difference separating Chasidic movements is in their dress code. Each group has their own particular so called uniform, but are they truly unified, no as is evidenced on Passover in the true Chasidic homes there is no exchange of visits amongst friends where they share a cooked meal. But amongst the Chasidic leadership and followed (publicly at least) the issue of which is more important to protect the purity of the Soul or the life of the Body. That was answered during the Shoa (holocaust) when many Jewish communities were rounded up a with their Rabbis slaughtered, the ones that disregarded their Rabbis edict of not leaving their community remained alive to regenerate their Jewish community and with it the learning of Torah. The only reason that today we have a worldwide Torah abiding communities is the formation of the State of Israel, with all its faults as nothing that is governed by humans can ever be perfect with so many divergent opinions.
23. Charles, "Haupt Mechutan", where are you?
Eli ,   Israel   (04.29.07)
24.  Israel value to world judaisim
chaim ,   miami beach usa   (04.29.07)
A friend of mine a person know as Avi Shulman whose father Israel both were involved in as administrators of a Jewish organization known as Torah and Masora showed me a map of the United States circa pre 1948, and a current view (1975) of the same map. On that map were Red Dot’s each Dot represented a viable Jewish community the pre 1948 map had maybe 10-15 dots over the entire continental United States, but the current map indicated so many dot’s that it looked like the map was stricken with the measles and on both coasts of the US it was almost covered entirely with Red. This is reality can any person with an open mind refute that the State of Israel is not a direct result of such a phenomenal expansion of world learning of Torah. It inspired the publication of the Sancino Shas, Philipp Blackman, Art Scroll and many other Jewish religion oriented books written in Hebrew into English so that the large English speaking Jewish community is able to participate in studying Torah. At times I wonder if for whatever reason Israel was not established as a Jewish country, Amuna (Belief) and observances are not one of the same Belief is acknowledgment of a G-D, observances is a act of serving G-D and not every person accepts the other person viewpoint in how to properly serve G-D. That Israel is Jewish you only have to look at what constitutes holidays, Sabbath is recognized the country celebrate their Holidays as described in the Torah not secular holidays, celebrates Independence day according to the Jewish Lunar Calendar, if Israel would not have become an independent Jewish State would the resurgence and proud identity of being Jewish have been realized. If history is any indication the answer would have been a resounding NO. say what you want but do not be blinded by a leadership that maybe knowledgeable in Torah but certainly are not capable of changing history or even knowing what a certain act will have on the future. A difference of religious opinion is not a sufficient reason to cause any conflict.
25. Israel and tora
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.29.07)
Had we to rely on the tora students , there would be no Israel today . Miracles happened maybe thousands years ago , but not in the last century . There we even had no intervention in favor of the Jewish people from above , if there is an "above" . In my view , not . For the State of Israel , we have to thank all those who fought for it , not those who were praying or studying .
26. 2 way deal
arik ,   ranana   (04.30.07)
I agree the state exists due to its support of Tora and indeed Tora florishes in the State of Israel, but do we have to thank the state? that I'm not sure because the state never asked for this partnership and even still today you have kenesset members who call the state to stop it, so I don't think our thanks are yet wellcomed nor is it asked for. Let me just add that we should thank PM Begin z"l for it was he who openly supported Tora institutes in Israel.
27. Hakoros Hatov
BF ,   USA   (04.30.07)
Certain elements within israeli chareidi judaism have no hakoros hatov - many chareidm do have hakoros hatov Al tisaev mitzri kei ger hayita niartzo if this applies to mitzrim who enslaved taht we have to show hakoros hatov - kol vichomer ben kal vichomer to the state of israel
28. Chaim , Miami beach
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
Is it not shamefull that the Tora has to be translated in English to allow religious people in the USA to study it ? would it not be better that they know Hebrew ? I'm not religious , and spoke Hebrew long before making Alyah .
29. Hakarat Hatov
steve ,   bp   (04.30.07)
While Torah grew in Israel despite the efforts of the state (we do not forget the Jews from Yemen who had their beards cut off). Today's young charaidim are in many ways very much part of the state, and many feel part of it and have hakarat hatov to it. How does the rest of Israel benefit? You ask. Most of the private chesed is run by and done by chareidim. Hatzoloh, Zakah, Yad Ezrah.................
30. Eli , Read me ! [ END ]
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
Next talkbacks
Back to article