Jewish Scene  Uri Orbach
A two-way deal
Uri Orbach
Published: 29.04.07, 16:31
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31. #29 Where does the Money come from?
Seraphya ,   Monsey, New York, US   (04.30.07)
The money for most of the work of charity organizations that help the wider community does not come from Haredim. Don't fool yourself. The sects provide for themselves first and fo those closest to them. They also take money from the state for social programs. Then the money for charities that benefit all Israelis doesn't come from a proverty stricken community, or even mostly from teh richer Haredim
32. Seraphya # 31
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
If you read my tb's you certainly know that i'm very secular . You ask "where does the money come from" , yes many secular Israelis contribute , voluntarely to one or more of those charity organisations . And this because those organisations do a tremendeous work , not only for the charidim , but for the WHOLE population , regardless if you are religious or not . And there are more than those three organisations . Yad Sara was founded by the actual maire of our capital , Mr Lupolyansky [ sorry for the writing of your name ] who was awarded the Israel prize for this . You have many others . Those organisations are maybe the only , but great , contribution to Israel made by them .
33. Charles #28
chaim ,   miami beach usa   (04.30.07)
Charles the ability to speak/read Hebrew is not as important as Identifying yourself as being Jewish, in that how a person observes or does not observe is his personal preference as far as the importance of what language you study the Torah you have to realize one, the entire Talmud was written in Aramaic not Hebrew, in fact the entire Torah was interpreted into Aramaic and recited together with the Hebrew version every week by those that review the weekly portion that will be read in the synagogue that Sabbath. Just understand the Torah is not in the exclusive domain or to be studied in Hebrew.
34. Israel
James ,   Glasgow, Scotland   (04.30.07)
Forgive me for butting in on your dilemma but Israel exists because God makes it exist. It was your disbelief, your disobedience that lost the land in the first place thanks to all the ridiculous laws you invented to drown out the original and you still kid yourselves on that it is your devotion to the Torah. Praise God that He made the promises as given to Abraham for without them you would still be without a land.
35. Does anyone have info on Yad Ezra we'shulamit?
Abdullah ,   EuMe   (04.30.07)
If so can you post a link? thanks:-]
36. Abdulla
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
search at Google for Yad Ezra . i found it , but look yourself
37. WHAT!!!!
Asher ,   Yerushaliyim   (04.30.07)
Who are you trying to fool? This state does everything it can to destroy Yidishkit. This was the basis of its inception. If it wasn't for coalition agreements you would not see a shekel. They wish they can control everything without partners. Torah flourished thousands of years without the state. What a strange article.
38. Chaim Miami beach
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
Where i lived in Galut , i do not remember that the Parashat Hashavoua was recited in Aramic also. As far as i know , the Parashat hashavoua was only read in Hebrew . Maybe it was so centuries ago [ reading in Aramic ]. And is'nt it better to study Tora in a more "original" language than in a translation into English . And when you pray , is it also in English ? i do'nt think so , so you say your prayers without understanding them ? I feel 100 % Jewish , and Israel is my Historical home , Hebrew my daily language . Parashat Hashavoua = weekly Tora chapter .
39. Today's Hareidim are grateful
Besalel ,   Kew Gardens, NY   (04.30.07)
Uri's article would have been on the mark had it been written 25 years ago. Today, most Hareidim in Israel are extremely nationalistic, even more than the latte sippers on the boardwalks in Tel Aviv. After the National Religious and the Kibbutznikim, I would rank the Hareidim third in nationalistic pride, far ahead of the urban dwellers. Look at the platform for Shas and Degel/Agudda and you will see strong nationalism. Their reluctance to join the army has much more to do with the inability of the army to cater to their needs and the corrupt values gained in service than opposition to the state. Most Hareidim I know, both in the US and in Israel, have the State of Israel very close to their hearts. After the Disengagement, the gap between the National religious and the ultra-religious shrank to near nill. Uri's article, like everything I have read from this clown, tries to stir emotional responses to non-existent issues.
40. Ivrit
Avraham   (04.30.07)
Charles - do you think only Jews speak Hebrew? Many arabs in Israel do, as do many Europeans and some Americans who come for work, journalism or their own religious reason. You missed Chaim's comment before, apparently. The Talmud was written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Even today, many Arabs speak Aramaic, primarily those in the Eastern Orthodox Church. BTW, Israeli culture is based on minhagim and halachot from JUDAISM. Responding to an earlier comment, it is TRUE that the foundation of the Medina was SPECIFICALLY based on the attempted annihilation of Judaism and Limud Ha Torah. Oh, and don't forget the racism towards Sefardim. Nor, should we forget the murders of religious Jews by the Medina, the irradiation of Moroccan children in the Scalpal Ringworm scandal or the kidnapping and sale of Yemenite children. If you care to dispute what I said, then let's go, man.
41. #38 Charles from Petach Tikva
chaim ,   miami beach usa   (04.30.07)
Apparently I do not know from where and how you were educated in Judaism, so I will not refute your knowledge base, but I will add to it if you have an open mind. Most if not all strictly orthodox people educated in a Yeshiva recite the Parshat Hashvua on Friday 3 times, as follows once in Hebrew the second time in Aramaic, the third time again in Hebrew it is known as Styim Mikra Vachad Targum, In responding to your opinion that the public reading of the Torah on Sabbath and it being interpreted to the congregants into the common known language, you must have overlooked an entire section of the Shulcan Oraha that is the Codified Jewish laws followed by most of all orthodox Jews, addressing the method of how to read and interpret the Torah, it requires that the repetition by the translator of each Posuk (the verses) after the reading of the Hebrew must be in a lower tone of voice then the original Hebrew reader, so as not to confuse the congregation of , which is the most important version to listen to. In regards to Daily/Sabbath/Holidays prayers it is permissible to recite them in any language provided you understand what you are saying as an example reading it in German, when you are not totally proficient in German is not acceptable, but if it is read as it appears in the prayer book even though many chapters are also written in Aramaic your understanding of what you are saying is unimportant. BTW I received my Rabbinical certification in Jerusalem at the time that the Binyanay Hauma was built which was the Court Forum that the Eichmann Trial was adjudicated I being also a Survivor of his diabolic acts attended some of the proceedings (when I was able to secure admission tickets) and yes I speak read & write proficiently the Hebrew Language .
42. torah
crypto jew ,   lebanon   (04.30.07)
without the torah , there is no judaism and no israel . with out zionism there is no israel nor judaism . the future is more judaism and more zionism . without them there is no israel
43. Avraham
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
Do you think i do'nt know that others than Israelis speak Hebrew ? This was not what i was talking about . I said that it is shamefull that religious Jews in the USA need to have the Tora translated in English , that they do'nt understand Hebrew . All your writing has nothing to do with the purpose of my letter to Chaim .
44. Chaim , Miami beach
charles ,   petach tikva   (04.30.07)
I do not have any rabbinical certification , but i NEVER heard a translation of Parashat Hashavoua in the Synagogue [ Orthodox , Machsike Hadass or Shomre Hadass in Antwerp ] were i came sometimes . Nor here in Israel where i was also honored ounce with an Alya [ the Shabbat Kala of my daughter ] Regarding not understanding your prayers , where were they educated in Judaism ? To finish , i stay by what i said : it's shamefull that religious Jews in the USA don't understand and speak Hebrew [ not all of course ] In the town i lived , most children , even the secular went to a Jewish school , had a complete 15 years during Jewish education , spoke Hebrew , and can immediately enter an Israeli University . What has being a Holocaust survivor to do with this subject ? I'm also a survivor , but this is not the subject .
45. #44 Charles
David E. ,   Jerusalem   (04.30.07)
Chaim was just trying to bring out a point that speaking fluently Hebrew and living in Israel does not make one a better Jew. Even those who don't know a word of Hebrew and live in chutz le'aretz, can be more Jewish than those who speak only Hebrew and live in Israel. Torah learning flourishes wherever religious Jews reside, not necessarily in Zionist Israel. For over 2000 years Torah flourished all over the galut and had nothing to do with this medina. So it's not Zionist Israel that deserve the credit. But ZIONIST ISRAEL DESERVES FULL CREDIT for denying thousands of Jewish children from learning Torah.
46. Charles from P.T. is 100% right
Besalel ,   Kew Gardens, NY   (04.30.07)
Those of you who learn Torah in different languages are missing out on real Torah. You are getting a dilluted version of the beauty and Emet of Torah. Look at the Yerushalimi in Masechet Meggilah that says that God speaks Hebrew and the Pnei Moshe that says that God created the world in Hebrew and the Talmud Bavli (Masechet Chagiga) that says that the Malachim speak in Hebrew as well. Also look at the Kuzari's question with regard to the importance of the Hebrew language and the response of the Hacham. Rashi, in numerous places writes about the importance of knowing Hebrew. Rashi, who lived his whole life in France spoke and wrote a beautiful Hebrew. Rav Moshe Fienstein in Even HaEzer 3:35 states explicitly that it is a "Mitzvah to speak Hebrew (but it is not a sin to speak in a different language)." For the most part, Avraham, Chaim and David E. are a great embarrassment to the real religious world. You should go and sit at the feet of the secular Charles from Petach Tikva and learn a little about Judaism.
47. #44 and #46
chaim ,   miami beach usa   (05.01.07)
Dear Charles and others, the reason why I included the Holocaust into this equation, first let me respond to your assertion Jewish history as interpreted by the Sages is the first temple was destroyed and the subsequent first dispersal of the Jewish nation from the land, was due to their failure to give the land a rest for 70 Shmitot, and then after a 70 year Galuet some Jews did return and rebuilt the second Bait Hamikdosh, the destruction of the Second Bait Hamikdosh and our current Galuet which lasted for over 2 millennium, (2000 years) was not caused by Worshiping wrongly or False GODs not even their failure in performing other mitzvahs as proscribed but because of Sinat Chinum simply put Intolerance and hatred between Jews and until that discord is not eliminated from our system, we are not yet worthy of having a Third Bait Hamikdosh. In as far as why Hebrew not taught in Jewish schools, it may surprise you, but strictly Orthodox Yeshivot like Telz, Bait Medroush Elyon, Detroit, and other like minded Yeshivas make a very important distinction between Hebrew and Ivrit, as they are not the same language, and would rather learn the Torah or other Religious Hebrew books either in Jewish or English. but for the answer to your other assertions it would take almost an entire book to give you a clearly defined acceptable answer, so I suggest go and engage a Rabbi or a yeshiva student, and then ask him what is the reason of Maavir Sedera which is Styim Mikra Vachad Targum, also ask him the meaning of Mitzva Tzaricha Kavana Oy Loy, then you will be able to discern the veracity of my opinion.
48. Seems that Mr Orbach didnt do his research properly
Uri (not Orbach) ,   Johannesburg, SA   (05.01.07)
Mr Orbach claims that Israeli taxpayers support Torah. If he would look at the facts it would not be inappropriate to conclude the opposite. Yeshivot in Israel pay a special additional tax to the government of 11.75% of their payroll. Therefore the government support is simply returning some of this special tax. This can hardly be called taxpayers supporting the Yeshivot. Their foreign students spend money in the economy & their visiting relatives do the same, while the Yeshiva heads bring in millions of Dollars into Israel, which is also spent in the country. Conclusion: the financial benefit to the taxpayers exceeds the ever reducing support that the government gives back to the Yeshivot !!!
49. #46: Avraham, Chaim and David E. are correct
Abdullah ,   EuMe   (05.01.07)
I am certainly no expert but from what I know for the last 2000years the Torah has been studied both in the original hebrew and targum (translation). And that is the practice in torah-observant synagogues in the golah, the practice of teimanim and the halacha. The whole point of the targum is to ensure perfect understanding and thus it makes sense for it to be in the local language. Furthermore knowing israeli hebrew does not ensure a better understanding of the torah or hebrew religious texts than someone who has a proper translation. B'cos soem nuances of meaning in the "holy" hebrew are lost in israeli hebrew, some words and constuctions in the former are unknown in the latter and so on. So even an israili native without religious education would need help to FULLY understand Torah and the siddurim. On the hand and english, german, spanish or arabic speaking Jew who has a proper torah religious education from youth will have a much better understanding and connection to the torah and prayers than israeli who lacked such an education. The most important thing is proper torah education.
50. Chaim
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
Saying that Hebrew and Ivrit are different languages only shows the little knowledge you have in this field . Tell me what language is called Jewish ? Is it Ladino ? this is also a Jewish language , or not ? i speak Yiddish , is this the Jewish language you are refering to ?
51. abdulla
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
From a religious point you are right by saying that the most important thing is proper tora education , but i would add , preferably in Hebrew . I know there are nuances between the tora Hebrew and the actual spoken here . But they are easier to explain in hebrew than in a galut language , where you have first to translate , and then also to explain . I think that a native Israeli Hebrew speaking one can understand most of the prayers and holy books , he , or she , needs only some explanations . Basically they understand . And do'nt forget , translations are subject to many discussions .
52. David E
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
It's not the State that denies children not to be religiously educated , those are their parents who don't send their children to a religious school . You know my position regarding religion , so i haven't to add anything .
53. work and torah no`10. miracles
sheila boofty ,   jerusalem israel   (05.01.07)
hanina - well done for your words my sentiments exactly. torah ve avodah - we all worked as we grew up and did not turn to parents to support us while not earning money sheila
54. #52 Have you forgotten what this zionist state has done
David E. ,   Jerusalem   (05.01.07)
to Jews by force against their will to Yaldei Tehran, Yemen, and other Sephardic Jews; Jews who trusted this "state" as supposedly a Jewish state? Shame on this state that you worship so. At the time this happened, you were practicing "holy zionism" in Antwerp and you didn't want to know about the crimes committed here by the sly Ashkenazic people who know how to fool those innocent and wonderful Jews who kept the mesorah for thousands of years in galut and when they reached this zionist country - zehu! causing the jails to be full of them. And this is thanks to the zionists who did not allow Torah study and Torah observance, like in Communist Russia, but instead replaced it with secular zionism, for most important for Jews is, as you say, "speaking ivrit (unholy Hebrew)". In summary, the Sephardic Jews were behaving better in galut than in this zionist state. So should they thank and admit this state for the "Torah" flourishing? It's better to speak and learn Torah in English, Yiddish, French, Arabic than to speak Hebrew and not learn Torah.
55. The Ungrateful Hareidi
charles jackson ,   new york, US   (05.01.07)
In the perverse mindset of the Hareidi community, it is better for everyone else's daughter to have to serve in the military than for their own sons to miss their Torah study time. Ultimately, it will become more evident that the Hareidi refusal to acknowledge that there is anything worthwhile outside of their own little world is based on a fear that when society presents alternatives to their children, only the truly committed will stay loyal - not just to Torah but to Hareidi society's control structure.
56. Charles from Gates of Hope
chaim ,   miami beach usa   (05.01.07)
Good morning (from Miami Beach) a difference of opinion is not a sufficient reason to be denigrating, but in answer to what I know or don’t about various languages I will give you a bit of my knowledge base about various known world languages and their derivative Kings English as spoken in England is some what different then the English spoken in the USA Spanish as spoken in Spain is different that the Spanish spoken throughout the lands ie: South and Central America, Mexico and the Caribbean Islands which were introduced to the original natives by the Spanish Conquistadors who invaded their countries. And O’ yes Ladino is a derivative of the Spanish language spoken primarily by the Sephardic Jew’s and is still the preferred language by the Jews of South America, Gibraltar, and yes it is a Spanish Yiddish French as spoken by the French is different then Creole spoken by the Haitians and a large segment of the New Orleans natives. German as spoken in Germany is different then the German used throughout Europe it is referred to as “Hoch Doycth” by the way the Kings English is a derivative of ancient German and as that was the Dominant language Yiddish as we know it today has its roots in that language. The language that is used in the Torah is referred to a ‘Loshen Hakodesh’ is different the modern day Ivrit, yes many words seem the same so does all other languages having a similar used language but the Spanish spoken in Spain is hardly understood in other countries that speak a similar language. Ladino and Yiddish were created as a result of Jews were always segregated from the general population so they created their own special language, and according to many orthodox theories they have by usage by only the Jewish people attained a aura of Specialty. All segments of the Jewish communities that seem are apposed to the State of Israel are not in any shape or form opposed to the Land and its Jewish population living is Israel but are apposed to their leadership and so to show their displeasure shun Ivrit as their preferred language.
57. David E
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
What are you still doing here in this state you hate so much ? Don't forget that it were [ mostly ] the seculars and even anti religious who gave their blood for this land you can live in , and spray you hate towards her . This were not the tora studying people , they did not much , if nothing . And yes , all the Jews who immigrated to Israel should thank those seculars , even the Yemenites and North Africans , who otherwise would probably be assassinated in their native countries .
58. Chaim
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
You were right when saying that the Parashat Hashavoua was also recited in another language , but you omitted to say that it was in the reform or conservative community . For me , i never went to such a "synagogue" , only to Orthodox ones , and there it is unknown .
59. Chaim from Miami Beach and Abdullah
Besalel ,   Kew Gardens, NY   (05.01.07)
You seem to ignore all of the evidence in Halacha and Medrash showing you that learning Torah in Hebrew is much better than learning in a different language. So here is a simple one: look at Masechet Avoth, Second Perek, first Mishna, and the Rambam's explanation on that. He equates the Mitzvah of learning Torah in Hebrew to the Mitzvah of Brit Milah and Kurban Pesach. Chaim and Abdullah, of course learning Torah is the Ikkar and doing it in Hebrew is the Tafel but you are such Ame'i Aratzot that you refuse to recognize the importance of learning in Hebrew. You are so stuck in the Galut that when the Redemption comes, you will never want to go home. (See Rashi's explanation on "Vachamushim Alu B'nei Yisrael MiMitzrayim" that only 20% of the Jews will be redeemed in the times of Mashiach. Chaim from Miami Beach, will you be part of the 20% and speak Hebrew or the 80% and stay tanned on Collins Avenue?)
60. Chaim
charles ,   petach tikva   (05.01.07)
Good afternoon Chaim [ it's 4.40 PM here ] Well thanks for your language letter , but don't worry , i knew everything you wrote . I agree , and think i wrote this already , that there are differences between the Tora Hebrew and the Hebrew spoken here . Small differences . Many words had to be added to the "old" Hebrew to be a usefull language , a language to be used every day . I have also a Tanach with a French traduction [ A Jewish one , unther the supervision of Rabbi Zadoc Kahn ] But this is very a "bibliophile" item , also used to explain some chapters to my daughters , who as i wrote attended a full time Jewish school . I know also that very orthodox [ aschkenasi ] Jews in Galut don't speak Hebrew , Lashon Kodesh for them , they spoke Yiddish in my town . But for "modern" religious Jews not to speak Hebrew , is always a shame in my eyes .
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