It must be hard to face the truth.You thought it was just charadim that the gov't dislikes. Wake up! it is Judiasm that they can't stomach. why does the press alweays refer to Gen. Stern as religious? because he wairs a kippah???

as we disbanded the irgun and the palmach so the hesder units should be integrated into the regular IDF.... brigades based on ideology are a formula for______ (figure it out!)

if soldiers from hesder volunteer for combat units, why would you not allow them to serve? mr. stern is forgetting that the role of the army is to have the best soldiers to defend the country. he is destroying these units because he want the army to be a "melting pot" (i.e. he want the religious jews to assimilate). he was appointed to be a general, not a social engineer. - people like him are a destructive force .

Just because the Religious Zionists unlike the charedim actually want to build up and protect the country doesn't mean that the RZ were under any illusions about the anti-religious nature of the army and govt.

AS far as is understood, Stern graduated Yeshiva Tichonit Netiv Meir and did not chose Hesder but regular IDF. Is he not approaching this matter with psychological baggage attempting to vindicate himself? Does he have any appreciation of the high Torah values of Benish, or does he fool himself into believing that his kippa makes him as religious as everyone else?

"doesn't mean that the RZ were under any illusions about the anti-religious nature of the army and govt. " Excuse my ignorance, but why would you want to build up an anti-religious country?

all i keep reading is how the religous live off the goverment but do nothing in return. well, they wont even LET them serve, so who is at fault for that? the israeli goverment is thats who.

If we can't get Jews to mix with other Jews in the Army, we are in a lot of trouble. My question to those opposing General Stern's decision - are you so worried that Hesder boys are so weak religiously and spiritually that they will be easily influenced by the secular Jew? If so, than the education that they are receiving is not effective. I think differently, the Hesder boy will influence the secular soldier overwhelmingly more than visa versa. The Torah teaches us to love our fellow Jew not to be intolerent of them or treat them as pariahs. The sooner that message is spread to all of Israeli society the better for all of us. The religious segment, must lead the way and fullfill this as part of its historic legacy.

Sure, do mixed units, just get the units to comply with Jewish law. The whole reason to segregate out the observant Jews is a desire for the IDF to not have to comply with Jew law and serve as a Jewish army. Perhaps try a few integrated units that follow the rules. So the secular Jews won't engage in Talmud studies, then can do something else in that time...

not "different Jews"

thats just common sense, woman can fight but not alongside men.

What Stern is trying to do is very similar to what the bolsheviks did to Yemenite Jewery - inflicted a harsh campaign of anti-religious brainwashing, cutting off their peyos, dressing them in secular clothes.

20 + years ago I had "Hesdernikim" under my command.They was the best I can remember.

What everyone knows, but no-one is saying, is that the army is afraid (quite rightly) that creating homogeneous units of people who are likely to share a certain narrow political ideology is dangerous. This is especially true when that ideology is one that its adherents believe is driven by religious faith, and when hesder yeshiva rabbis advocate soldiers disobeying orders when those orders don't fit their ideology. How can you expect an army to have units made up of people who all go to the same school, where the teacher has taught them to disobey orders they don't like for political reasons? This is a recipe for sedition and mutiny - which is precisely what the Kahanists advocate. Now watch them dishonestly shriek and squeal on this board about anti-religious discrimination.

Good idea! Let the dati boys influence and teach through their example the secular boys. Let them mingle and even become friends for life learning to respect one another. Meir

or when they start making their own alternatives to the army.

What an idiot, This kids are the best we've got, they TRULY have the spirit to fight and sacrifice for this country, their conviction stems from the beleive that G-D gave us this land and it TOTALLY belongs to us, and it is greater then us all.

dont hide under religion and make all kind of excuses.When you defend your nation, You are the Soldier of Hashem !

WITHOUT THE CAMP BEING HOLY, ONLY DISASTERS HAVE COME TO ISRAEL. They want to make sure that females are in all combat units, so they throw away the best and most dedicated soldiers. My children will not serve in an army that does not apply its own laws: total separation of the sexes in the bases, fully kosher food.

The general stern is right.The army is for the security of Israel.The soldiers all are equal.No preferance must be given under any pretext.The religious will be as all others in this country.GOOD LEADER IN GENERAL STERN. Keep it up.

If Israel is to be a real melting pot there must be no separation, especially by religious observance. An ARMY is supposed to be PROFESSIONAL in all its intentions and proclivities, supportive of the highest standards of teamwork and abilities. Religion can and should be INTEGRAL , but no separation and privilages that are not earned. Military units should be staffed and supplied according to earned merit and fitness, not according to prior religious affiliations or social status or club membership. How else can the real "creme de la creme" rise to the top ? Those with the highest military abilities, proven potential, and "fighting spirit" regardless of social status, should be selected for the top units and posts according to the needs of the IDF. Mixing them up helps to separate the wheat from the chaff, especially at the lower levels of the enlisted and officer ranks. Mixing them up helps to determine individual strengths and special skills that would otherwise go unnoticed, and which could better be utilized by the IDF. The IDF should fight FOR ALL ISRAELIS, AS EQUAL ISRAELIS, not for individual factions within society be they religious or other. That is the signature of free and true MELTING POT.

Less important than putting all the "dosim" together is the need to supply adequate conditions (food and gender separation) . The religious soldiers are entitled with having their religious principles treated with respect. Everything after that is secondary as their motivation to serve is very high.

Women should be steered clear of most situations and duties that may require hand-to hand combat possibilities. Women can be integrated more capably in specialized weapons units such missiles and launchers, helicopters, aviation, communications, recon devices, distant from the immediate action etc. where their dexterity and multi-tasking abilities can excell.

Thanks YP sitting in comfort in Joisey. Your blanket statement that the hesdernikim are the best we've got is an insult to all the "regular" guys who volunteer of their own free will to serve in the toughest combat units. They are motivated by patriotism. They will not disobey orders because some self-serving unholy man tells them to. There are excellent secular soldiers just as there are excellent hesder soldiers and just as there are excellent soldiers who hapen to be religious. serve the FULL three years in the army and don't mak a song and dance about their religious beliefs.

Just like #21, only the religious separatists are the good soldiers. Keep on slagging off the majority of the combat soldiers who uncomplainingly protect us ALL, irrespective of kashrut observance and sexual separation. Stop blowing your own trumpet about how wonderful "your" soldiers are. If you have to sell the product in such an agressive manner, maybe it's not such a good product after all. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much". I am sure that the IDF and the State of Israel will survive without the "invaluable" contribution of your sons and - shock, horror - daughters.