You are absolutely correct. The purpose of the army IS to ensure the security of Israel. Giving preferential treatment to one group over another only weakens its operational capability. Last month General Yair Naveh, who like Gerneral Stern is religious, made clear in no uncertain terms to a group of hesdernikim that he would not acceed to their demand for more prayer time by making the point that he is only interested in their operational capability.

"The Torah teaches us to love our fellow Jew not to be intolerent of them or treat them as pariahs. The sooner that message is spread to all of Israeli society the better for all of us. " The Torah also teaches us that if a person has a choice of two paths to his destination, and one path has women bathing by it; if he chooses to go down that path, even if his eyes are closed, he's considered an evil person, for just tempting his inclinations. Hesder is being realistic. People are not angels and will be affected by their surroundings.

The conditions are present. Food is kosher - glatt in the Haredi Nahal. Pesach follows the stricter Ashkenazi practice. The sexes are separated: no approach closer than 40 cm between the genders, but what the.. who obeys standing orders. The religious obsession with gender separation is lifted when there is a question of saving of life (pikuach nefesh). A religious man requiring medical treatment doesn't reject care from female medical professionals. The IDF is carrying out the mitzva of pikuach nefesh 24/7 and all soldiers are part of that team from the Chief of Staff to the rawest non-com recruit cleaning the toilets. If the rabbis want to find a workaround, they can. Clearly they don't want to. The IDF must function and those with obsessions about sex should seek professional help if it interferes with their military duties.

It is the religious Jews who treat their less religious counterparts as paraiahs not the other way around. With regard to the Torah commentary, since the story is presumably commentary not written on two tablets of stone, there is no indication if the two paths are of equal length, difficulty, safety etc so an objectively valid comparison is not possible. Furthermore, a man (only a man would be so daft) walking along with his eyes closed is a complete idiot. I'm surprised that the Torah allegedly regards a man - should I say person? - as evil for not taking the line of least resistance and avoiding the bathing women. Learning to restrain our naturally impulsive behaviour can be good for our characters if practiced in moderation. Maybe the Torah was thinking about the man's physical safety: one man, several women; if he were to try anything on the girls would make mincemeat of him. Hesder is being very realistic. It knows that if it's minions are exposed to a free choice, its indoctrination is not strong enough to withstand the pressures of a free society because these youngsters have never been taught to think outside the box.

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. Do you know that your sons use army equipment to watch your daughters undress on the bases. If our soldiers had to spend less time worrying about the shtuss they could concentrate on fighting Hashem's war - who do you think decides if we win or lose anyway. Do you worship Olmert, or Bush or Hashem? You think its ok that our army says we should have less time for prayer!!! With no Hashem there is no victory. Stop putting your faith in people - they will ALWAYS let you down and stop punishing those who want to concentrate on fighting for their country, by making them fight for their religious beliefs. The muslims are doing very well, and they pray 5 times a day!

"Maybe the Torah was thinking about the man's physical safety: one man, several women; if he were to try anything on the girls would make mincemeat of him. " No, it was very clear what it was talking about. "I'm surprised that the Torah allegedly regards a man - should I say person? - as evil for not taking the line of least resistance and avoiding the bathing women." Sorry. Straight in the Talmud. So, it comes down to your opinion vs. the Torah's. Hesder is correct in choosing the Torah's. That's what Jews have been doing for the past 3300 years and that's what's kept Judaism alive.

I see how religious people can get mad... But this is army, it is made to protect Israel... We need soldiers who will fight without limitations.. Haredim are not just fit for the missions of the paratroopers and Golani Brigade. I hate to see soldiers wasting time by praying instead of cleaning rifles or practicing.. This is reality.

There is no reason to give prefer treatment to some soldiers and not to others Haredi soldiers often have quite high motivation and make good soldier So what is problem to integrate them with regular units? We have problem with them in elite unit - regular tzioni religious is much easier to integrate but haredi is problem because he doesnt listen to commander all the time, he do what he want. But for haredi regular unit integration is good because they can help there also, no reason for them to have seperate unit Anyway there is nothing going on with women in reguar unit that is not going on also in haredi unit e.g. in nahal haradi or something like this. If you really believe that they leave the women alone then you need to take the blindfold off and open your eyes. It happen everywhere and by the way theres nothing wrong with it its quite natural

you force these religious boys into bases where the laws of keeping kosher and shabbat are all but ignored. The segregated units were the army's admission that they can't keep the level high enough. Fine - you want hesder within all the units...no problem - but FIRST clean up the army so that hesder boys don't have to go into the kitchens to see the soldiers there often don't have a clue about keeping kosher, mix up dishes and utensils all the time. We have a right to maintain our religion - that is paramount. You want to up the level so that we can do that in ALL units? Cool! I'm all for eliminating the segregation. But, until that happens - keep your hands off the separate units - and Stern - go on and attempt to rationalize your religion away. Yet another example of the ghetto Jew amidst us.

"No, it was very clear what it was talking about." I should have put an emoticon in there. I was being a bit, though only a bit, tongue in. "Sorry. Straight in the Talmud" Could you please make up your mind, Torah from Sinai or later Talmudic COMMENTARY (=opinion). "So, it comes down to your opinion vs. the Torah's" Talmud's opinion. See above. Like you I am entitled to my opinion. Indeed it is my own opinion - doubtless worthless and wrong headed from your standpoint -and not that of someone else, be it rabbi or secular professor of philosophy. Hesder is correct for itself as it is not strong enough to withstand the pressures of any environment than its own strictured one. Without adherents the rabbis leading the national religious/hesder movement would no longer have a power base. Jews have been choosing an interpreted version of the Torah over thousands of years, otherwise we would be observing Karaite ritual, sitting in the dark and cold on Shabbat and possibly living in family units of man + four wives and offspring. Interpretations change with changing circumstances. What was right in the Middle Ages may be just a little unsuitable for the 21st century.

While you're at it, there should be separate regiments for religious Jews, reform Jews, secular Jews, Israeli Arabs, Israeli goys. These should be further subdivided for men versus women, sephardics versus ashkenazis, brown eyes vs. blue, heteros vs. homos . . . Then there's the Air Force, and the Navy . . . and what about the Knesset, the Judiciary, the police . . .? Balkanise the lot of them, and they'll be so ineffective your enemies will just walk all over you!

Of course "these things" go on everywhere. It's simply that if there are no women around, or no men who -shock, horror - have normal SOCIAL intercourse with women in their civilian lives the "things" are less likely to happen in practice. The opposition to mixed units derives from doubts about the strength of faith of the hesder boys and desire by the community leaders to maintain their power base.

Alon, can you name a base where a hesder boy saw utensils being mixed? You have a right to maintain your religious practice which may vary from others practice. Our generation is blessed with not only the duty to defend the Jewish Commonwealth but also the right to do so. Doing so is a case of saving of life (pikuach nefesh) and that trumps the pot and pantheism of alleged mixed dishes.

The reference about pantheism is not only out of place, it is a sign of ignorance bordering on madness. Or are you not familiar with the term? Your expertise on the laws of Kashrut or on pikuach nefesh are also at the same puerile sophistication.

First of all in the army there something called "the code of correct working practice" which is part of the IDF standing orders. It effectively enables men and women to work together as equal partners. Furthermore men are not allowed to enter the women's living quarters and vice versa so the men have no chance to see women undress. Secondly, combat soldiers worry about doing the job of defending our country and our people first and the presence or absence of girl soldiers who may or may not be getting undressed as a poor second!!!! Thirdly I must agree with you that even though they are taking time out to pray five times a day Beduin soldiers are among the finest combat troops in the IDF. Druze and Circassian soldiers in the IDF also seem to be able to manage in non-segregated units and perform as exceelent fighters. Finaly the muslims are taking their religion to extremes to justify their war against us and the world. If that is "doing well", so be it.

"Do you know that your sons use army equipment to watch your daughters undress on the bases." Hmm... I think that this is probably libelous but it's a talkback so let me go through your comments point by tedious point. I am curious to know what the source of your information is and how you personally know that MY children are behaving in this way. My I ask if your children are serving/going to serve/have served in the IDF? For MY sons to watch MY daughters on their respective bases would require sophisticated equipment that would enable the collection and transmission of images over considerable distances. The IDF doubtless has this. Since the girls don't generally undress outside I presume we are talking about thermal imaging. Blurry green images. Very exciting - not. Aren't you a little concerned that MY sons might catch sight of MY daughters if they should both happen to be on the same R and R at the same swimming pool? They would have also been put in that situation by the IDF. How dreadful ☺!!!! Oh dear! one of my boys has glasses that were paid for by the IDF after his own pair got broken in the line of duty. I must make sure that he only uses his specs for military purposes and I'll get him another set for watching tele, playing billiards, driving, looking at our beautiful young ladies who are about to emerge from their winter hibernation and of course for reading be it from the computer screen or the siddur. "If our soldiers had to spend less time worrying about the shtuss they could concentrate on fighting Hashem's war - who do you think decides if we win or lose anyway. " The IDF is not perfect but religious needs are catered for, up to the level of haredi where needed. All soldiers are engaged in "pikuach nefesh" of the Jewish people and state and if they should inadvertently catch sight of a female soldier, the pilkuach nefesh is by far more important than the self-perceived sin of looking at a full-clothed woman. HaKodesh Baruch Hu is giving us the opportunity to defend ourselves. If we do not use the chance that He gives us then we will surely lose. "Do you worship Olmert, or Bush or Hashem?" My religious belief is a private matter but the two muppets shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as The Almighty. Show some respect. "Stop putting your faith in people - they will ALWAYS let you down and stop punishing those who want to concentrate on fighting for their country, by making them fight for their religious beliefs." Too right - never put faith in fallible humans. The only certainty in life apart from death is being let down by ones fellow man. Nobody is punishing our fighters. If they feel a need for a stricter religious lifestyle then they can join the haredi nahal. These days if there is a problem with a soldier Mum and Dad can always kick up a fuss. The boys can get on with doing the job. "The muslims are doing very well, and they pray 5 times a day! " Sure are doing well. Muslim countries include some of the least developed and productive in the world. Their main export apart from crude oil appears to be suicide bombers. I suppose that is doing well to some people. Shabbat Shalom

Yes I can name the base...does that help? The hesder boy went into the kitchen and saw things were not being done correctly. Among other things - yes, certainly minor in relation to the call to duty...was the fact that the Bedouin cooks didn't know they should be keeping some things separate at all. Now, I'm all in favor of having Bedouins and Druzim in the army - and agree, they make some of our finest soldiers - but so to the Hesder boys. Their motivation is typically at the top - always. They have proven, again and again, their bravery and honor and all they ask in return is to be able to serve without betraying their beliefs and religion...and yes, that includes not integrating closely with female soldiers (as they don't integrate with females outside the army anyway). You have secular kids bowing out of the army left and right for stupid reasons. A cousin has a neighbor whose son simply didn't want to serve - he refused and gave the army so much trouble, they finally excused him from service. Compare that to hesder boys who WANT to serve. What is the problem? My son is in a hesder unit - they work along side other units cohesively and easily and when we went to a ceremony - my son and his group hugged their fellow soldiers just as those soldiers hugged them. When it comes to pihuach nefesh - the hesder boys step forward...and always have. That doesn't mean that laws of kashrut should simply be ignored.

Ilan The term is "pot and pantheism", not pantheism on its own. It's a word play on a particular nuts and bolts aspect of kashrut. Pots and Pans. The pantheism is not meant to be stand-alone. I was responding to a comment that hesder boys might have "seen" dishes being mixed up. Even in the best run domestic kitchens the occassional mishap occurs and the laws of kashrut have rulings on how to deal with such situations. Anything that impinges on the welfare of the Jewish National Home may cause loss of Jewish life. Alon put maintenence of religious practice as paramount. My humble opinion is that the welfare of the Jewish people and state are slightly more important than "seeing" dishes mixed up. Thre is always the haredi nahal for those that want a greater degree of observance.

Alon in your position I would name and shame the base to the authorities. Where was the "rasar" mitbach. not doing his job and should be fired. Don't integrate with females outside the army - what about "tefillin dating"??? Working together is hardly the same as being sexually licentious! Hesder boys do indeed volunteer for many dangerous pikuach nefesh missions. I was only commenting on your apparently equating kashrut with defence of our country. We have many points of agreement. Shabbat Shalom

“That’s just common sense, woman can fight but not alongside men.” In other words women can fight against the men but not alongside.

Don’t you teach your sons and daughters to behave? Then let them make their own decision and to adjust to the rules. All your long wordings about worshiping G-d and “Moslems are doing very well” are the pile of nonsense.

for the goyish kopf. No contradiction between providing an minimally Jewish environment for the soliders and operational ability. No need to ask a Jewish solider to abandon his religion in order to serve in a particular unit. The argument of ""saving a life"doesn't apply in this situation as the army' is quite capable of making the changes during the 90% of a time that there is no war or any emergency. And if the situation changes then keeping kosher is indeed less important, but don't play games with the truth.

for the nation.In good time, they can daven as usual, but not in the combat unit please ! Excuse the Praying Boys / Short Course ( 6 months) for everything and pust the burden of being The IDF Soldier to others. Soon some would say the special privilage of religious soldiers superceeds secular jews and others. Give me a break !Idiots ! If you want to join the Army your first duty is defend the nation.Dont mix up religion and the IDF military ! No special treatment or preferential treatment and special priviledge ! for Jews or Gentiles in the IDF ! All who join the IDF are EQUAL SOLDIERS ! .

Do we then have to have a rabbi to decide what is pikuach nefesh and what isn't ? What if he doesn't answer the phone because it's Shabbes. Maybe you should go back to the galut and let us mainstream Jews preserve a dynamic and developing Jewish life. I am erring on the side of safety in that the military can be called upon to act at a moment's notice. Alon was referring to a specifice incident which shuold never have happened and for which those responsible should be drummed out of the service for lowering the operational fitness of the hesdernikim by causing them to pay attention to trivia which they should be able to take for granted. You are the one who ignores facts and twists the truth.

both of you. Shabbat Shalom

The new ruling is forced assimilation, melting pot theory is designed to weaken the bonds to a higher power that the "State" and should be resisted as the Russian Cantonists.

Just as men come in various sizes and strengths, so do women. I big guy can through his weight around and pin a small guy, and a small guy can weasle around the big guy and make him topple. same is true of women. And while men's center of gravity and strength is in upper bady, women's is in the legs. Why not have a "peoples army" that capitalizes on the diversity of strengths and capacities of all its soldiers? And just think how much it would freak out the enemy soldiers to have to fight (and be defeated by) a good, strong, smart Israeli woman!

My Brother, Sexually harrassing female soldiers is NOT "quite natural" and you insult your fellow male soldiers (and men in general) by suggesting that it is. Everything else you say makes sense, inclding the suggestion that young adults, in general, are interested in flirting with possible love interests, and all people feel lust -- that is natural. Intruding on another person's privacy and dignity is not. This is a lesson that, apparently, even some high-level Israeli "leaders" need to learn!

other "secular" soldiers? Why are the cheredeim so afraid of keeping company with others? Is your belief in Hashem so fragile? Have you raised your sons so poorly that you fear they will stray? Did it ever occur to you that it might even be a good thing for so-called secular soldiers to have a chereidi buddy? Did it occur to you that the breaking down of harmful stereotypes works both ways? And, finally, any combat soldier will tell you that when you're in the field, what really matters to you is not getting killed so that you can save the life of your unit-mates. Don't tell me that the chereidim are interested in saving only other chereidim; now that would be dishonorable and dishonoring to Hashem. Sh'ma Yisrael: we all come from the same Oneness and we are all One -- let's act like it!