with exception to some cases I know ; - ) ~

...last year,my Russian girl-friend,Irena,said"thy God will be my God",just like Ruth.So I said "Welcome to Rosen's"prestigious club" ".But Rosen thought otherwise;so here we are in the U.K. happily married & members of the Country Club.

"This is not so according to the average Russian Jew. The children, and often the woman in such families, suffered from acts of anti-Semitism in Russia, encountered difficulties in enrolling in universities and couldn't find appropriate employment. Many partook in the struggle to make aliyah. Many viewed themselves as Jews until arriving in Israel." that's unfortunate, but they're still not jews. and if they want to be , they need to convert like all the rest of the goyim that are here.

REmember the old "Kosher-Style" pickles? They weren't really kosher, but they tasted the same. So, if these people don't want to commit themselves to fillowing the Halachic rules of Judaism, why not place them in a new category: Jewish Style?

"Rabbi" Kotler's logic is flawed. On one hand he argues that intermarriage is okay and should be permitted on the other he argues that conversion should be more readily available. He shoots himself in the foot. Why convert if intermarriage is okay? Isn't the whole conversion process made to create a Jewish marriage. If you don't believe that a intra-Jewish marriage is important then your stance on conversion is not genuine. You are the weasel that tells the farmer to change the locks on the chicken coop to a different "better" model. Rabbi Rosen, this government chose to allow these people to come here under the flawed law of return. They followed the rules to come here. Now that they are here, we're telling them, "thanks for coming now suffer." Of course the law of return should have only applied to Halakhic Jews but now that it is not and now that they are here and they did not break any rules getting here, how can we deny them basic human rights? If you're going to have a law of return for non-Halakhic Jews then you must recognize civil marriages.

how stupid one can be. He claims While the number of Jews worldwide is dropping due to intermarriage, the only way to prevent the disappearance of the Jewish community is to assist the offspring of these marriages to become part of Israeli society. He admits the source of the problem is the reformed ideology of a Jew to intermarry, yet he blames the orthodox for not converting more of these ignoramuses. FIX THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM STUPID GREGORY. My 3 year old son knows more about the Jewish religion than this creature

There is no reason why it cant be straight forward and help people become part on the Jewish nation. We want true converts and we want more Jewish births. My wife converted to Judaism before we were married and we are having our third child this summer.

I love the Orthodox but they are wrong on this issue. The logic is tenuous at best. Did Ruth attend a bit dinh? Was Jethro a convert? The answer to both could is probably no. Israel is bitting off its nose to spit its face and the hazing that is now required before conversion in Israel is counterproductive. Listen to the language of "prestigious club." What kind of none sense is that? We are not talking about a sorority or fraternity here. Well, maybe for some people we are.

Blessings of Avraham to you.....may...... : - )~

To say that people who wish to BECOME part of the Jewish Nation should not conform to what the Jewish tradition imposes, is totally disrespectful for Judaism. IT IS NOT THE SAME FOR BORN JEWS, who can live as they wish and choose to have a very long open account with their maker. EVEN TO ACQUIRE AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP a foreigner is required TO DO THINGS THAT AMERICAN BORN ARE NOT RECQUIRED TO DO: learn English, learn American History and Constitution, and SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION. No one asks that before giving a US Citizenship to someone who is American Born. YET, so many people obviously have less respect for Torah and Judaism than for anything else. If one wants to BECOME part of the Jewish People, the conditions are very clear: he/she must TAKE UPON HIM/HERSELF THE YOKE OF TORAH AND MITSWOTH. NOTHING LESS. Obviously, marrying a Jew, which is forbidden by Torah for a non Jew, doesn't make the candidate or her offsprings Jewish!

There is something fundamentally wrong with setting up a definition of Judaism "according to Hitler." Yet this is the definition adopted by the Law of Return. Gregory Kotler would like these non-Jewish Russian streamlined into a fake "cultural" Judaism so that his organization can get new members. The fact is that very few Russian immigrants are interested in converting to Judaism of any form. Oh, and, by the way, there is a third type of convert depicted in the Bible: Shechem ben Hamor, who agreed to "convert" only in order to marry a Jewish woman (Dena the daughter of Jacob)

The most important issue is that Israel became a nation under law at Sinai rather than a tribe or a clan. As such its member are citizens and not just members. We have born citizens and naturalized citizens, and can be no short cut to citizenship or deviation from critical citizenship requirements without destroying the integrity of the nation. Period.

telling us what to do in Israel. What a freakin joke.

As a matter of curiosity, I am uncertain of the status of anyone in the 1942-1945 period who would have had a Jewish father and a Christian mother....Would this "particular" status have made him immune to the Nazi persecution ? Answer appreciated....

It may be better Jo if you convert to Christianity. M.

For the first time in quite a while, we have a country to run. Also, for the first time in quite a while, we have many people who wish to convert. As much as I appreciate the religious arguments, they don't solve the new problems we are facing. Many of our religious laws were made to adapt to life in Exile, in small, isolated, & persecuted communities. The Talmud itself is the result of changing religious law to suit new conditions.

These people are now an obstacle to the religion and the state. Their rules were great for the diaspora, but now it's a new time and we are back in the land. These people need to be striped of the power of controlling both conversion and marriage as they are now an obstacle to those who were born and live here and fight for us. These immigrant children want to marry Jewish partners and should be allowed to convert without committing to be "talmud halakha" keepers. The Torah says the mitzvot are "not in heaven ... or across the seas....but are in your mouth and in your heart that you can keep them." Rabinnical halakhah is fine if you want to keep it, but it's not TORAH of Moshe, it's Torah of Rabbis. Enough already. Let these people become Jews by committing to the G-d of Israel, learning our holidays and being circumcised (men). That shouldn't take longer than 6 months. Why should they commit to laws that are admittedly only "fences" and a lifestyle that is fine for those who choose it, but is certainly not biblical. I'm sick of this crap.

When you cannot attack the content of my talkback you attack where I am from. Please address the matter at hand. In any event, Israel belongs to every Jew. It is mine here in Queens as much as it is yours in Ramat Hasharon.

The displacement nature of Christianity dictated that Christianity pervert this issue. (Biblical acceptance requires a Jewish court -- precluding the legitimacy of Christianity.) As a consequence, Christians have been ignorant concerning this (and many other Judaica) issue(s). Batei Din trace back to Yitro in Shemot 18.17-26. In fact, "Sanhedrin" is the anglicized form of the Hellenist (Greek) term "suneidrion," the Supreme Court more accurately known as the Beit Din ha-Jadol (the Great Beit Din). Since the time of Avraham intermarriage was prohibited and acceptance into Israel required circumcision (be-Reishit 34.14-15). Thus, the Erev Rav (Shemot 12.38) and Yitro's daughter necessarily converted. Before the establishment of the Beit Din, however, the 12 Tribes of Yisraeil were - uh - tribes. That means they were administered by tribal chiefs. Not just anyone could walk in and announce they belonged to any of the tribes. There was some sort of conversion that predated the Beit Din system. So the question is not whether conversion was required. Certainly, it was. The only question is whether conversion the differed unjustifiably from today. Just as, in the U.S., there are local courts and district courts under the Supreme Court, so, too, there were district or tribal Batei Din under the Beit Din ha-Jadol and, under the Batei Din, Batei Din Q'tanim (local, lit. "small," Batei Din). Until destroyed by the Romans circa 135 C.E., the Batei Din maintained public genealogical registries (Yukhasin; also called, metaphorically, the Tree of Life). Rut married Boaz, which would have had to be registered in the local Yukhasin - meaning that, yes, Rut appeared before a Beit Din, both to convert (because she could not otherwise marry Boaz) and to marry. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Yom Shishi is a disgrace to Israel and Jewish readers. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

I'm sympathetic to the criticism of Orthodox rabbis being too caught up in minutiae -- too Beit Shamai -- and not faithful to Beit Hileil (as explained on one foot). Nevertheless, your assumptions conflict with the historical record. As I showed in my previous message ("Logic of Orthodox (8)"), the Beit Din system dates back to Mosheh. Subsequent to the establishment of the Beit Din system, we find words like mishpat and khoq used hundreds of times with an obvious reference to a court. To repeat an essential from my previous message: "The displacement nature of Christianity dictated that Christianity pervert this issue. (Biblical acceptance requires a Jewish court -- precluding the legitimacy of Christianity.) As a consequence, Christians have been ignorant concerning this (and many other Judaica) issue(s)." The way Christianity obscured the intrinsic nature of "rabbinic halakhah" is by disconnecting mishpat and khoq from the Beit Din system through obfuscation: "judgment" and "decree" unrelated to anything in particular. Thus, *anyone,* including a gentile, could render judgments and decrees in their religion. In the Bible, however, mishpat and khoq are the product of the Beit Din system. Historically, the interpretations and adjudication of mishpat and halakhah split into three major factions by BCE 1st century: two mostly priestly (that including the aristocracy) Sadducee factions (Hellenist "Temple" and Essene Qumran) and Pharisees (the rest of the Jews). Accordingly, the Batei Din of the Hellenist "Temple" Sadducee codified their interpretations and adjudication of mishpat and khoq into the ספר גזירות (Seipher J'zeirot; the Book of Decrees), the Batei Din of the Essene Qumran Sadducees called their mishpat and khoq מעשה (Maaseh; the Doing) while the Batei Din of the Pharisees called their mishpat and khoq הלכה (Halakhah; the Walk). The destruction of the Beit ha-Miqdash eliminated the raison d'être of both Sadducean sects, leaving only the Pharisees -- today's Orthodox -- and Halakhah. Thus, Rabbinic Halakhah *IS* the Torah of Mosheh! We just need to ensure that Halakhah is the (mathematically) *logical* -- i.e. current and up-to-date -- mishpat and khoq derived from written Torah of Har Sinai; not mired in ignorant and mistaken understandings the previous -- or 10th -- century. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Yom Shishi is a disgrace to Israel and Jewish readers. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

"Historically, the interpretations and adjudication of mishpat and halakhah split into three major factions by BCE 1st century: ..." should have read: "Historically, the interpretations and adjudication of mishpat and khoq split into three major factions by BCE 1st century: ..." Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

You seem like a nice guy yet you don't speak very wise You wrote - These immigrant children want to marry Jewish partners and should be allowed to convert without committing to be "talmud halakha" keepers. Even if you are correct that they need not commit to the Talmud Halachah. We are talking about people that will not commit to even the Torah and Mitzvot. Do these Russians not eat pig. Do they wear Teffilin and say Shema everyday and night. Do they keep Shabbat, Sit in a succah on Succot, or not eat Chametz on Pesach. These are laws of Torah and not the Rabbis. The Torah says the mitzvot are "not in heaven ... or across the seas....but are in your mouth and in your heart that you can keep them." BTW "In your Mouth" refers to the Torah itself WHICH YOU READ and "In your heart" refers to the oral law which initiated from Moshe who was a Rabbi up until the Rabbis today. Rabbis including Moshe may not add or subtract anything from the Torah. If they did Jews would not listen to them. It must mean everything the Rabbis say are an explanation to the Torah itself which they do not make up. They can bring clear proofs to it from the Torah itself

No Besalel , Israel belongs to the Israelis , not to you , nor to any other living abroad . You may support us , thank you very much , you can contribute financially to the Country . But this do not makes Israel your property . Your support can give you only a good feeling , your financial support is a kind of life insurance , you will have a place who wellcomes you in case of ....You give us your support , here people give their life , a big difference . And if Israel belongs to every Jew , as you claim it , also to those anti Israeli "Jews" ? But do'nt worry , you are always wellcome , and then you can proclame that this country is also yours .

To my mind this is a no brainer; either allow civil marriage or make it easier for non jews to convert. Has the othodox establishment not learned a thing in 200 hundred years. Making conversion increasingly diificult has not stopped the growth of Progressive Judasim it has had the opposite effect. It has encouraged Non Jews to make use of the progressives for conversion. Perhaps its time to have a rethink. Dont make the same mistakes that the diaspora Jews have made.

Israel belongs to every Jew whether home or abroad. In fact, if Israel does not belong to every Jew then you have no right to it either. After all, who gave you the right to come from Europe or Morocco or Iraq, displace the Arabs who were there and establish a state? The answer is that we Jews have been given this right, which we never relinquished. Therefore, Israel was yours when you were in Poland, and it is yours now that you are in Petach Tikva and it is mine in Queens and my fellow Jew's in Mexico and will be mine when I will move there, too.

The 'court' or beit din after a lengthy investigation will decide if the person in question is that of a Jew, or a Jewish neshamah. But, simply training a non-Jew to do tricks will not change their neshamah. But they will be grafted onto Israel, as a Torah observant non-Jew. Some converts with a Jewish soul will be Jewish after the beit din. What is interesting is that most of the Rabbonim are decendents of Erev Rav who decide who is Jewish. If they see a soul that is similar to theirs, they say they are Jewish. They may be "Jewish" by the mitzvot but still may not have a Jewish neshamah. Therefore, today, there may be many who are described as Jewish but have a soul that is not. Only the coming Mashiakh will be able to tell.

Maybe since you like to avoid questions of how you became the self appointed leader of the historical dead Jew named Ribi Yehoshua, maybe you could teach us with your never ending wisdom of how we can follow in your footsteps and become self appointed with you. Do we need some believe that he has returned spiritually according to you therefore we can all become spiritually self appointed, just like you. Please share your enlightened wisdom with the Jewish people here.

My first response to you was'nt posted . a second try . No , dear friend , Israel belongs to his inhabitants ,and first of all to all those who built it . When i made Alayh , after 20+visits , i had a strange feeling [ ihope you understand Yiddish ] : ich bin gekimmen tsi a graiten tich . I came to a dressed table . Everything was made ready for me to have a nice country . Why had this country to be "mine" before making Alya ? Because i was lucky to be born Jewish ? Because i supported every governement against attacks abroad [ even if i disagreed ] because i gave some money ? No , dear friend , this is not so . Those who live here , those who built , those who fought and suffered , those who paid hughe price for it , to them the country belongs .

[ i pushed the submit before ending ] You see we disagree , you are of course very welcome , come and then you can say , proudly : MY COUNTRY PS : i was never in Poland PS II : do not use the term : displace when talking about the Arabs who fled , leave this kind of vocabulary to anti-Israel people .

Do not forget one thing : Israel is a state for Jews . I'm very secular , but allowing civil marriage , or making conversions easier , will change the Jewish caracter of our country . Progressive or reform "Judaism" are maybe growing , but are far away of what i would call Jewish . If a [ reform ]convert tells me , many years after conversion , that he did'nt know writing was not allowed on Shabbat , i can ask myself some questions . This was maybe only a separate sample , maybe not .