...Israel and all Jews around the world have more serious issues to deal with - anti-Israeli and anti-semitic hatred that spawns boycotts, rocket attacks and ultimately another war with a hostile neighbour. Stuff your desires to parade your superficial sexual preferences - either get real or drop dead.. I am so sick of the mournful cry of human rights liberalism - Nero fiddles and Rome burns.

The nations around us are preparing for war this summer. We have no time for parades.

In fairness, this year some of the STUPID ARGUMENTS made last year against the parade are not being made with the same frequency. Well, there's YMBMY, but he/she/it is a newcomer. You guys can indeed have an anti-gay march, or a straight pride march, or whatever, even in San Francisco. So this biz about your being silenced just cannot be taken seriously. You can also have a viciously anti-gay event just before the pride march in Jerusalem, as happened last year. In SF, you will face a counter-demonstration larger than your own march, of course. In Jerusalem, all the clown suited ones will join you. Enjoy.

It takes nerve for privileged straight people (or those who declare themselves as such) to be saying that gay people wanting to live an open life is unimportant when one can be sure that few things would be so important if the shoe were on the other foot. Do you know, for example, how tiresome it is for me to read about problems in getting "gets"? In fact, personally, if I never heard about "the children" it would still be too soon. Has it occurred to you that just because YOU think something is a low priority because YOU already enjoy certain rights, OTHER people who do NOT enjoy such rights might consider them high priority? Oh, and dudi, a gay person living openly IS getting a life. That's what so pisses off anti-gay bigots.

Jonathan (unless you're a yored, your name is spelled thus), perversion is indeed a right. However, your "pragmatic point of view" is TRUE psychobabble, as you throw around words like "perverse," "abnormal," and so forth, without any respectable (i.e. peer-reviewed) sources being referenced. My pragmatic point of view is that you are an ignoramus as well as sick and perverted. I would welcome you to "ascend" to Israel wholeheartedly, except that I will be there myself in a couple of years and I would hate to see another parasite in the Holy Land. Love, sk

The sad part of this yearly confrontation in Jerusalem with the homosexual community is that they don't care that it is a Holy City revered by 3 religions. They want to put on their spectacle despite the fact that no one wants them there and most religious people feel it is an abomination before G-d. The "in your face" attitude is crude, thoughtless, and will be resented. It certainly will not make anyone more likely to accept them, but to the contrary. If they are religious they know that all three religions reject their life style, and trying to force acceptance is not going to take the words from the Bible condemming it. These actions constitute discrimination again Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and the homosexual community would be much better served by doing good works and becoming known for humanitarian efforts than by flaunting their choice in front of those that will never accept them. It is childish and confrontational. My friends brother died of Aids a number of years ago. Since then I cannot use the term "gay" for homosexuals, because there was certainly nothing gay about his death and suffering and what his family went through trying to help him survive.

..you wouldn't have felt the need to go in to the closet to begin with. Back to normalcy and Torah.

March Gay people march and have a fun day out! If Arabs can demonstrate in the center of Tel Aviv, then you must be allowed to have your fun and colourful parade. I'm all for it.

This event threatens the Jewish nature of the State.

Israel set a date for the homosexual parade... Iran's prez. set a date for Israel's destruction. Hmmm.. could the two be connected? It would not suprise me if they were.

Dude, psychologists and sociologists did some very scientific studies a long time ago. You just don't want to hear them. Your side found a scientific group that declared your lifestyle within predictable population standards and therefore "normal" and you desparately hang on to it, attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Amazingly, if you go back to what the old psycho/social studies predicted in world population growth, it is all coming true!

You are so right . I began to support the pride parade mostly for the reason you give . It's not only solidarity with this parade , but also revulsion regarding the way those "charidim" did behave .

I wrote a detailed response to your TB, but the censor either negligently or maliciously deleted it. I thought it was so inoffensive that I didn't bother to make a copy. I will not rewrite it here. All I'll say is that Freud did not consider homosexuality an "illness," and if you want to "go back a long time ago," he does have the merit of having invented the framework used by the psychoanalysts who first made the gays-are-sick claim. I will also add that the DSM is as canonical as one can get regarding mental health, and it, too, does not consider homosexuality an illness. Again, sorry for being less than exhaustive. You have the censor to blame.

Throughout the Torah, the songs sung by Jews were songs of praise to Hashem for the mighty things he did for them. Deliverance from the enimies, providing their needs, harvests that produced abundantly, his great love and protection for them, how wonderously they were made and formed in the womb. But never, not once do we find any songs of praise from the people of Sodom on how they were giving into their lascivious lifestyle of pervision. Not once did David play on his harp about how great it was to see Adam and Steve lying in bed together. Nowhere is it written or recorded that Hashem blessed that lifestyle. So if they are to sing songs about being gay, than their songs would be about how they have no respect for Hashem, and how they picked a day to parade infront of him and thump their noses in his face and declare he is no longer their G-D, nor is his word of protection important to them any longer. And that would be the saddest song on earth.

Regarding the money . From the USA : Those money has mostly , if not entirely , to be used to buy US products . A great part are also loans , and Israel pay them back till the last Agora . Regarding the help we receive from the USA , first of all , we are not alone , secondly , Israel is the only true reliable friend of your country , and third , it's also US' interest to support us . Do'nt forget this saying : PEOPLE GIVE NOTHING FOR NOTHING . Regarding the Jewish donors : You buy yourself a good conscience by doing so . You are buying yourself the "right" to call yourself "good Jews" , this is one . Secondly , for you it's also a sort of "life insurance" , in case of ..... you'll have a country that will welcome you . And do'nt forget , that if you give some bills for this , here there are who gave their life for your right to have , in case of need , a shelter . So you see , we are thanking you for your support , you can be thankfull for our sacrifices . We need each other . Sorry for my "undiplomatic" writing . English , as some know it already , is not my mother tongue , only my third one . [ please explain : chucky ]

I think i know you , unther an other name . Unther your other name your writings , even there is some lack of knowledge , are at least smart , this can't be said from this one .

The difference between you , the religious , and i , the very secular and an anti religious coercision ? I made ALYAH , and you stay in your Galut USA .

"but the censor either negligently or maliciously deleted it." ... "You have the censor to blame." No offense intended, I'm just going to point out what jumps off the page at me. sk, you are still in an attack mode even when you are trying to be civil on this matter. Why does the censor have to be either neglegent or malicious when they disagree with you? I have had my TB's censored so many times I could not even begin to count them. Yet, I never blamed the censor. They are just doing their job. Maybe you should work on being a little more tolerant, hmmm?? Population studies have shown that for every block of ten million people there are predictable behavior patterns. Some are considered normal and some are considered a deviation from the normal. There is a predictable percentage of homosexuals, yes. But, there are also predictable population percentages for all psycho-sexual deviations from what normally is considered "normal". So, if you go by Freud, or even Johnson & Johnson for that mater, you can say there is no such thing as abnormal sexual behavior. It's all predictable, therefore, it is all normal. Part 2 to follow

Now that we have established that there are a wide range of human "deviations" from what is considered "normal". Let us say that all of this is just part of the human condition, shall we? But as followers of the G-d of Abraham it is not enough to say "I am only human". The G-d of Abraham summons us with a higher calling. He commands us to set ourselves apart from what He considers sinful behavior. It is not enough for you to say "I have the genes of a Hebrew, therefore I am Jewish!" Are you more Hewbrew than the ancient Israelites who traveled with Moses out of Egypt? Only two made it into the Promised Land! Unless your faith and obediance is equal to that of Joshua and Caleb, you will not see the "Promised Land" either.

Well, the job of the censor is to filter out TBs that violate policy. So, either I violated policy or the censor was negligent in doing his job (or there was a computer glitch, but I think this is less likely). If you believe that I did not violate policy, negligence is the only likely explanation. And, as I spent some time in my TB, I am a bit miffed. Is this "attack mode" or just being annoyed at wasting my time? Your #41 did not reference Torah but "psychologists and sociologists." I responded to that claim with two of my own references, Freud and DSM, which pretty much covers my bases, at least for a TB. Freud, in his _Introductory Lectures in Psychoanalysis_ (which is quite a hefty book) points out that homosexuality is not an illness because it involves no inherent psychic conflict. DSM bases its opinion on a similar criterion: gay people are not inherently dysfunctional, a conclusion that became pretty clear when mental health professionals decided not to base their assessments on the tiny subset of people who were concerned enough to seek therapy for their sexual orientation. However, I am happy to stipulate to the idea that there are a wide range of deviations from the mean on a range of human characteristics. (From a statistical point of view, the Haredim are far less "normal" than gay people.) I am much, much less qualified to discuss what conforms with the rules of the G-d of Abraham. Sure, I could launch into a discussion of Leviticus and point out all sorts of puzzles regarding the relevant two passages, and I could do this without even bringing up such things as textual corruptions over time. I could also challenge later interpolations (which the Orthodox call "Torah" but which are not to be found in the Pentateuch). My own reading suggests that the prohibition certainly applies to men who engage in anal intercourse with male temple prostitutes in lieu of donations to the temple. I am familiar with an argument that the prohibition applies more broadly to the active male partner in ANY male-male anal intercourse. One thing I am sure of is that I am not unbiased in this matter. Another thing I am sure of is that Orthodox rabbis are not unbiased either, and I am unwilling to believe that what I consider an accumulated prejudice over the ages is simply "reading the Torah as it was intended." Evidence in support of my position can be found in the lack of argument over the prohibition. You see, I think rabbis are incapable of not arguing over every mark and every word, UNLESS some other force stops them from arguing. So, I see the lack of argument to be evidence of prejudice, not of the unmistakable clarity of the text. As you can see, I do not agree with your take on what G-d intends. But even if I did agree, I would still say that a march by gay Jews (and straight supporters) in their own political capital can be justified. I even think a march by Haredim can be justified. As for the Arabs, well, I'm more ambivalent, as Jews have a special status in Jerusalem, but I'd probably agree that as long as Muslims are citizens of Israel, even they have the right to march (peacefully, and without urging sedition or the destruction of the Jewish state). It is the march that is at issue here, not Jewish doctrine.

sk, that was a very nice TB. Thank you for time. It takes more effort to converse logically with someone who disagrees with you than to simply slling out an insult at them. Obvisously you have spent a lot of time on this issue because it is very important to you. You must be studing to be some kind of health care professional. I, on the other hand, have not. It is not very important to me at all. I did marry a psychologist, though. She tells me you are way off base in the area of abnormal psychology. She and other professionals who agree with her keep quiet because of the pressure from "peer review" you mentioned earlier. The "peer pressure" on this issue is so frienzied right now, they just aviod it. I have been reading the "Books of Moses" for over 49 years now. I am in complete agreement with the Haredim on this issue. (Statistically speaking, that must make me even less "normat" than they!) I encourage you to read the Torah again. This time, instead of looking for a "loop hole" in the Law of Moses to do the things you naturally want, read it in the spirit of "How can I best please Hashem?". I tell you the truth: A day is coming when all the world will stand before G-d to give an account of how they lived their lives. On that day, it will not matter how mentally brilliant you are, but how obediant you have been to G-d's laws. Thanks again for your time. It has reinforced my personal beliefs on how to best please G-d! Good luck to you.

Well thanks, Sheikh. Yours was a nice TB as well. In any academic field, there are disagreements, fads, foolish paradigms, and, we hope, some growth of knowledge over time. My position regarding homosexuality is typical of what leaders in the fields of psychology and psychiatry currently believe, as reported in, among other places, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM simply does not include homosexuality per se as a disorder, although dysfunction based on a lack of acceptance of one's sexual orientation may indeed be a disorder. It does not follow that the current consensus is correct, of course. By training, I am a political scientist, but I am familiar with academic psychology and several areas of healthcare research. As a political scientist I am naturally sensitive to politics in the academy. And yet, "peer review" is the only means for science to grow. This does not or should not mean intimidating those who disagree with one; rather, it refers to doing one's research in a transparent and reproducible way so that findings can be verified. My occasional experience with scientific sounding mental health people who trumpet the gays-are-sick idea is that their research is dreadful, and nobody can confirm their results. Even if one cannot publish because of bias in the profession (which I consider unlikely), that is no excuse for not making one's data and analyses available for outside scrutiny. You say "I encourage you to read the Torah again. This time, instead of looking for a "loop hole" in the Law of Moses to do the things you naturally want, read it in the spirit of "How can I best please Hashem?". In fairness, I am not much of a believer. What I'd say, though, is that the Haredim you agree with seem to have an indefatigable passion for elaboration of the Torah. Volume after volume of complexity, of special circumstances, of "emanations and penumbras." The one thing they are not is "strict constructionists." What I say is that if this approach is reasonable in general, it is surely reasonable regarding homosexuality. In closing, I'd just add my view that a Jew is much more likely to please God by respectful disagreement and discussion with a fellow Jew than by burning trash cans. I suspect that, on this point, you and I agree.