Jewish Scene
Rabbi Eliyahu: Women shouldn't study Gemara
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 13.06.07, 14:56
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31. Mevaze Talmidei Chachamim
Rav King ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (06.13.07)
I would be careful what you say about G-d fearing holy Jews like MaRan HaRav Eliyahu Shlit'a. Its not that women are not smart enough, or good enough or whatever , rather its that men and women have different roles in life, not that one is better or more superior, just different. Believe me, no man is complaining about not being able to cover their hair or give birth, or that we have to wear tefilling and a tallit and daven with a minyan 3 x's a day, etc. You people need to chill out and check out true Judaism before you make such comments. And according to Ynet, supposedly "comments containing incitement, slander, racist slurs and inappropriate language deemed to violate our terms of use won't be published." I guess that only applies when someone makes a comment about Arabs and leftists, but not about religious Jews....
32. #1
RJ ,   Israel   (06.13.07)
"Prohibiting women from Jewish education is chilul hashem. Please ignore this "psak". Really? Perhaps you should look in the Gemara itself, since he was simply repeating what it says there. I guess the Gemara is a chilul hashem according to you as well?
33. Rabbi, please rule that women should not go to work either..
usually its the man that must work but now the haredi women go to work while their husbands learn. how come there is no gender problem here?
34. #18 Hartley, another gem! LOL.Thanks.
35. Guffaw to those defending MaRan HaRav blah blah blah ...
sk ,   USA   (06.14.07)
The Haredim are corrupt through and through, and a fish rots from the head down. You know, when I read someone who is intellectually serious (e.g. the Rambam), I immediately know it, even if what he's saying sounds weird to me. But then I look at these modern phonies who hold court, and I realize they are appropriate for the uneducated, robotic Jews who swarm the Holy Land. This unthinking Judaism is simply the Orthodox analogue to Piss Now: a stupid ideology that dulls thinking but instills a belief that one is O-So-Sharp.
36. To #15, 23, 32 & Others
Ben ,   Pennsylvania   (06.14.07)
The Rabbi is a man! He is fallible and can make stupid remarks. Some of us think so. He is not G-d and fearing him as such is equivelement to human worship. This is not the first controversial comment he has made and I doubt it will be the last. Neither the Gemorah nor the Talmud carry the weight of the Torah! They are HUMAN interpretations and discussions. They should be respected, studied, and conferred with, but they are NOT the Torah and the Torah makes no objection to women. Using the the Talmud and Gemorah to justify the mideval marginilization and second class classification of women is a choice for some. Others find it repugnant. As for disrespecting Rabbi's, some should be. Take the nice fellows from Muncy who went to Iran. Should I respect them because you claim the Talmud forbids me to criticize them?
37. Re: Rav Eliyah's Psak
Savta Shira   (06.14.07)
B"H there are so many women today who have been able to learn in Seminaries just like the men, in Yerushalayim, and have attained a madreiga (level) to be able to learn Gemara. But, the problem today is that instead of these women finding their bashert, they are busy learning and trying to find a life rich in Torah and working to support themselves. Learning Gemara is intriguing, all-consuming, mind boggling and exquisitly amazing. But the reality is that these women would rather help their "choson" learn. Let's concentrate on finding ways to get these people married so they can build a home filled with Torah and Gemara, ie. Shebichtav and B'al Peh. And, yes, I have learned some Gemara. Loved it, relished the amazing thoughts and teachings of our Rabbis. But, discovered what Rav Eliyahu expresses, for, instead of caring for the family I found myself immersed in learning . My mind was on the Talmud instead of the needs of daily life. May we all be blessed with both the lamdan and the akeret habayit, for both are necessary for Jewish existence. This does not disqualify the needs of the woman to learn nor remove their desire. Instead it enables the oral tradition to continue as the Tannaim and Amorim and Rabbanim intended since the days of Moshe Rabbeinu. Thank you Rav Eliyahu for your clarification ; for understanding the inherent differences between man and woman as they were created. Intellect required nurture, but the home requires nurture as well. Those women who learn Gemara should be permitted to do so, but not if it jeopardizes the family home. Again, the mitzvah of learning is great, but so too is that of making shiduchim. Our youth need assistance in finding their bashert!! But, don't forget, Bruriah and Rashi's daughters too.
38. chillul hashem 03
aryeh shore ,   rechovot israel   (06.14.07)
No chillul hashem is not going against the laws of the torah. That is sin or heresy or something. Hillul Hashem is when a person identified as a religious jew does something which brings shame on the Jews, e.g. Rabbis indicted for sexual molestation, tax evasion; . the greatest Chillul Hashem in our time was the assasination of the PM.
39. Handmaid's Tale, anyone?
Dorothy Friend ,   Tel Aviv   (06.14.07)
Next thing he'll be saying the women shouldn't be allowed to read.
40. is he becoming TALIBAN or AYATOLAH??
reuven ,   usa   (06.14.07)
41. I completely disagree.
Keren ,   SP-Israel   (06.14.07)
I think we Jews should learn more and more about our Laws. I t can be in separated or joined classes among men and women;it doesn't matter,but we should learn ,learn,and learn,each day more!
42. And for hartley again!
Keren ,   SP-Israel   (06.14.07)
hartley,that's true that this is an open site to everybod\y,Jews and non Jews,but if you notice,the comments in the Jewish section are made mostly by Jews.The non Jews usually understand that this is an INTERNAL discussion. We are talking about concepts you are not able to understand,then why do you have, all the time, and in every issue, to participate? Your words in the next quote are just perfect and fit you very well:you do not understand about Soul's issues;your job is porno litle jokes or un-reflected leftits views. You don't know what we are talking about. A little modesty fits very well in "willing to be" educated people.try to learn and put yourself in your right place,please!! Your own words now: "how can a mere mortal know the soul of another human being, when most of us can't figure out our own souls?"
43. My Rav...
David ,   Israel   (06.14.07)
My Rav told me he felt my wife should learn germara. Not the whole thing, mind you, but those sections immediately relevant to her, which amounts to entire tractates in some cases (and he's hareidi).
44. I like this Eliashiv; he sounds like a devout Moslem.
H. Nasrallah ,   Israel   (06.14.07)
45. Because of this 'ruling' women will - davka! - start studyin
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (06.14.07)
When someone tells you you can't do somethng, it only causes a person to do it!
46. 33 good point
jerusalemite   (06.14.07)
47. Keren
charles ,   petach tikva   (06.14.07)
a little modesty fits very well in "willing to be" educated people . You wrote This is certainly meant for you , no ?
48. Ignorant nr 20
leon ,   Grand Rapids USA   (06.14.07)
You are presuming inorance in others. How do you know who knows the content of Gemara, and who doesn"t ? Do you have a monopoly on learning ???? And, pray tell, what is the difference in intellect between men and women ? Would you reject radiation treatment for a cancer because x-rays were discovered by Marie Curie, a woman , or would you prefer to die ?
49. #36
RJ   (06.15.07)
"Neither the Gemorah nor the Talmud carry the weight of the Torah! They are HUMAN interpretations and discussions." Nice tirade, but wrong. Perhaps if you would learn a little about your own religion, you would know that the Torah consists of the Written Law and the Oral Law. While the Talmud does contain interpretations and discussions, the bulk of it deals with Halacha that comes from Sinai. Please learn a little before attacking those with more knowledge than you.
50. To RJ, #49
Ben ,   Pennsylvania USA   (06.15.07)
Halacha from Sinai! BS! It is discussion and interpretation, that it, that's that. The Tooshba (Torah she Be-al Peh or Oral Torah as you would call it) is not law! Either way... my point is that Rabbi's are are fully capable of being stupid and saying stupid things, like your buddies from the NK.. or should I respect them too because guess what, they are "Rabbis." Keep your condescending "I am a smarter Jew than you" attitude to yourself. What the Ex-chief Rabbi said is within the norms of some of our society, some of us think it is wrong or worse. I simply think it belongs to an opperesive era in our history that we should have long ago left behind. If you wish to take as G-d's word everything that man says, go for it, most (yes MOST!) Jews don't agree. get over it.
51. 'love God with whole mind and whole soul'
marilyn   (06.15.07)
" In union with Christ there is neither male nor female." this does not mean we do not respect the headship of the man, But we are under the same command to 'love Jehovah with our whole heart and mind.' The womans mind is to be used i8n her worship of god. And as mothers she is the mans helper in seeing those 'laws' are promulgated into the hearts of her children. So she better know what she is doing.
52. #51
Keren ,   SP-Israel   (06.15.07)
Read #42 and get out of here! Thieves don't know about Judaism.Thieves just know how to opress the owners of their theft's product ,in order to keep that to them! How could thieves keep the product of their robbery if those robbed would keep strong and fight for what belong to them? Your job,christian marylin,is to opress Jews . Keep in your delusion while you can,because the Truth will be exposed soon!
53. #50
RJ ,   Jerusalem   (06.15.07)
"Halacha from Sinai! BS! It is discussion and interpretation, that it, that's that. The Tooshba (Torah she Be-al Peh or Oral Torah as you would call it) is not law! " From here I see you don't learn Gemara or Torah for that matter, since they disagree with you. "like your buddies from the NK" Funny. I'm living here in Israel supporting the State, not you. "Keep your condescending "I am a smarter Jew than you" attitude to yourself." You started first. "most (yes MOST!) Jews don't agree." Like you, most, yes MOST, Jews don't learn Torah and know very little about Judaism.
54. To RJ #53
Ben ,   Pennsylvania   (06.16.07)
My point which you have evaded is that Rabbis are fallible and we should not just take what they say without discourse or disagreement as if it is G-d's word as some here would have us do. I appologize for the NK comment, I just wish to make the point that they too are "Rabbis" and some here advise us that questioning the Rabbi's judgement is an avera. I am not a Yeshiva boy, at least not life long, nor have I spent years studying the Talmud or Gemorah, but I have studied them. You might be much better versed in all they contain, I can not argue that nor is that my point. My point is that they are commentaries and discussions and ideas that sometimes conflict within and should be treated as such, but more importantly, the interpretation of a current Rabbi from these works is not to be taken as dictates or commandments. You and I could look at the same discussion and arrive at different conclusions as could people substantially more learned than us. In Rav Eliyahoo's case, he chooses to interpret what he reads differently than I believe most modern minds would and in my eyes, differently than most ethical minds would. Shabbat Shalom.
55. #20
David ,   Israel   (06.17.07)
Seder Moed and mesechtas berachot and chullin and counting. But then, I didn't criticize him like many others did. I just pointed out my rav gave a different answer. In my opinion its really a question of individuals. While men have an obligation to learn, how many of them will ever really master more than a few hundred daf gemara in their lives? Its not the norm. Most focus on sifrei halacha and ethical texts and the like because they have to support their families and learn. As a result, since most women also have obligations, telling the average woman to only learn those parts of the gemara that apply to her is far from restrictive (its still a lot more than most will ever learn when you count it up). For me the real question is exceptional individuals. If they have the head for it, and the requisite focus and grounding, then I simply don't agree with him. In those cases I say let them learn. But I say it with the utmost esteem and respect.
56. #54
David ,   Israel   (06.17.07)
I would point out that he was stating a general rule, and that rule included learning those sections that are relevant to them. That's far more than most will ever learn if they do decide to crack it open, and if they go beyond that point they aren't the norm and the general rule may not apply to them. He didn't comment on that (or it wasn't conveyed to us) so you'd HAVE TO ASK HIM. I would also point out that often times the translations of such proclamations in the English edition are truncated or of dubious accuracy on a suspiciously regular basis. What's more, since this is not a novel statement on his part and wouldn't surprise anyone who knows anything about him, one might be led to question the editorial motive for publishing the article in the first place.
57. As for Bruria
David ,   Israel   (06.17.07)
For those who would like to remind the rav of bruria (as though he's forgotten) I would point them, since they are so learned, to rashis explanation of the talmud's reference to rabbi meir descending to bavel alone....
58. Was the RAMBAM an am haaretz?
Bartley Kulp ,   Safed, Israel   (06.18.07)
He ruled that while women should not be encouraged by their fathers to study Gemora, he ruled that if that is what they themselves want that they should.
59. Keep women in their place.
Eliezer ,   Boca Raton   (06.18.07)
This is typical of religious fanatics whether they are Christian, Muslim or even Jewish. The real danger to the world are these fanatic (men of God) who clothes themselves in the "word of God" .In reality they bigoted, narrow minded, hateful and dangerous. Save us from these ignorant men!
60. about # 20
swati ,   murrieta USA   (06.18.07)
oh no...on the contrary... men are most welcome to read the What to Expect when you are Expecting entirely, from cover to cover. Women don't discriminate when it come to sharing knowledge.
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