Opinion
Was there ever a Palestinian 'nation'?
Ofir Haivry
Published: 29.06.07, 06:54
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1. Well, interesting
Palestinian   (06.29.07)
Palestinian has always been used in the context to refer to people coming or orignate from Palestine, including animals and plants!! There is the Palestinian snake, and so.... The point of nationalism is indeed created because of colonialism... There is no difference between a Palestinian and a Lebanese for example, and to that matter a Jordan and a Syrian.... But if Syrians and Lebanese and Jordanians are ruling and have a country of their own, why should we who were born and raised in the land of our forefathers give up this land for zioinists who came in the dark and with the help of the British colonialists..?? I want to ask? Are there any people called Americans too?? They are just a bunch of italians, irish, native indians, asians, blacks, and latinos. Do not be so picky about the Palestinians... If there is something that is nothing, it is the Israeli identity which was created and attachd to the history and claimed to be related to the ancient Israelite whom the majority of them have either converted to Christianity and Islam or left the area.... No matter what fantasy you people come up with, Gaza and the West Bank are not Isolated.. The Isolation is between two main streams in the Palestinian street... Whether in Gaza, West Bank, Jordan or Lebanon... It is between those who think that this Issue should stay among the Palestinians, and those who think it is simply not a wat against the Palestinians, but against one of the Symbols of Islam which is the Holy Land and Jerusalem.. And hence see this conflict as a religious one.. In fact, no surprise here, and this is only a response to similar ideas existing at the Israeli side, that is zionism and its use of Judaism and the Torah and the Bible.... The future is only showing that Israel is again loosing time.... They rejected to make peace with Fateh and accept international law, like withdrawing from west bank and Gaza, allowing refugeess and so on.... Now they have to deal with Hamas, and if that fails, they will have to deal with those who are even more strict than Hamas and do not have the word negotiation in their dictionary... Israel is sinking my friend and keep dreaming... sooner or later, you will be overwhelmed in this region, take my word....
2. Irrelevant article
Cambridge, MA   (06.29.07)
State are about sharing power, and resources to people existing on its land... What is the differnece between the people of the State of New York and those of New Jersey? The same for Palestine/Jordan/Lebanon/Syria and so on... Boundaries are not a reflection of an ethnicity.... Else, why should there be a Canada? or an Australia ?
3. One nation ?
charles ,   petach tikva   (06.29.07)
How could it be that they are one nation ? So much of them came here after the settlement of Jews around 1880 and later .They came from different countries , some as far as Soudan or Yemen . Others , the Bedouins from various clans , fought each other . Later they became "united" with this opposition to the Jews . They of course did'nt build any structures for a future state as the Jewish Yishouv did , they did'nt build anything .
4. wonderful poignant article. and so very true historically an
(06.29.07)
5. Maybe true, but...
Reluctant Hawk ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (06.29.07)
The author makes some good points, but I'm not sure to what extent it should affect our decision-making. We have an interest in not ruling the Arab population centers in the territories in order to maintain our Jewish majority, reduce our military commitments, and escape political pressure from abroad. Palestinian nationalism might be a terrible idea, but at this point it looks like the most viable option towards realizing this interest. Unless Jordan and Egypt express interest in ruling Gaza and parts of Judea and Samaria again, this will continue to be the case. Furthoremore, narcissitic pride will make it difficult for Arabs to let go of the dream of Palestine even should it become obvious to all that it is not viable (something which is not at all clear at this point.) This is even more the case because so much emotion and pride has been invested in this dream and also because it retroactively gives meaning to the suffering which Palestinian Arabs and their descendants suffered as a result of their war against Israel and their treatment at the hands of the Arab states. A society which nurtures its 'righteous anger' and does not tolerate public self-criticism does not change direction easily. For us to expect them to do so, at least without a defeat much more thorough than any they have suffered since 1967, is a pipe dream.
6. A NON-PEOPLE
SERGIO ,   ISRAEL   (06.29.07)
As PLO executive wrote: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. "For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." (PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)
7. Excellent column.
Marcella   (06.29.07)
Indeed, the so-called Palestinians should find it impossible to argue with any of these points. But they have been telling themselves the myth of Palestinian identity for so long, that now they really believe it. The idea of Palestinian statehood should be reviewed and all factors in the new reality of the PA reconsidered. Palestinians, by their own behavior, are getting farther and farther from deserving to be awarded their own country. Can Israelis gather a group of independent thinkers to discuss radical new proposals, which could then be turned to Mr Blair and the Quartet for discussion? The Left is so well organized in Israel. Why not the Right? Since the Quartet is fixated on the idea of creating the state of Palestine at the expense of Israel's land and security, they need to be given a reality check. Something must be done and it needs to be done quickly, before it's too late.
8. is there a palestinian nation?
moshe brown ,   new york USA   (06.29.07)
Dr. Haivry's article is the clearest analysis of the Palestinian myth to date. It should be required reading
9. Irrelevant for us.
Boaz ,   Ramat Gan, Israel   (06.29.07)
Whether there is or there isn’t a Palestinian nation it is irrelevant for us. It is up to them to sort this out among themselves. They have a credibility problem on a wide range of issues, most notably the claim of wanting peace, which is not backed by even a single action that they took. As long as they are trying to murder us our concern is to stop them and fight back.
10. #2 Mr Cambridge
Marcella   (06.29.07)
Perhaps you have a point. Maybe Palestinians are as much a nation as Australia and Canada. Both Canada and Australia were created by displacing the indigenous population that had existed there for thousands of years. The Palestinians too are determined to push aside the indigenous population, THE JEWS, off the land, or at best to a "reservation" or ghetto, to live with lesser rights as Dhimmis in a land acquired from them by force.
11. #1 the "palestinian" confirms the article
David ,   Houston   (06.29.07)
"There is no difference between a Palestinian and a Lebanese for example, and to that matter a Jordan and a Syrian.... " ... "Israel is sinking my friend and keep dreaming... sooner or later, you will be overwhelmed in this region, take my word." #1 "palestinian" Of course they are all Arabs, no shame in that, but dishonesty in claiming a false identity going back thousands of years. So too in his final words he confirms the Arab desire to overwhelm and replace peoples as they did in Egypt, North Africa, and everywhere else. They are the replacement people and replacement religion that destroys cultures and peoples. True peace will come when the Arabs are returned to Arabia. It would be just fine for them to return to Syria and Jordan, just as it would be fine for them to remain if they chose peace but they do not. The consequence of this endless war to destroy Israel with newer and more dangerous weapons will be Syrian and Jordan as buffer zones, not countries. Notice how Arabs posting in Israeli site often use the name "Palestinian" not their real name, it is war name, an identity they assume as an assault on Israel, not a true identity. While the posting may feel confident in an eventual Arab conquest, he is unaware that Arabs have been driven from other lands they occupied. So too they will be driven from Israel, due to their determination to make war and never live in peace.
12. just like the state of srael
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (06.29.07)
whether or not anyone agrees with the israeli state, or whether it is legitimate or not, face it: israel is here now, just like the palestinians. the legitimacy options are: -israel is legitimate, pals aren't -israel isn't legitimate, pals are -both israel and pals are legitimate -both israel and pals are not legitimate irregardless of what one might think, the conclusion is the same: so what? there is a jewish state in the middle east, and there are people who call themselves (and are universally recognized as) palestinians. from the palestinian position, the two are diametrically opposed. reality has little interest in these excursions because the problems remain despite the flowery discussion that time has firmly established. deligitimizing is a waste of time, except for the propagandists.
13. Pakistan is a good example
sankar   (06.29.07)
The national identity of Pakistan is Hatred towards India and the faith and culture of that land. The sole reason de etre of existence of a country whose identity is defined by hatred towards another country is Pakistan. If isarelis want a "pakistan" near them, they can recognize and give away Palestine.
14. #1 Palestinian
Berry   (06.29.07)
Your argument that 'Israeli identity which was created and attachd to the history and claimed to be related to the ancient Israelite whom the majority of them have either converted to Christianity and Islam or left the area....' is pure claptrap. Whilst the Jewish people were exiled around the world by various nations who came to conquer Israel over the centuries (Romans, Arabs) there has been an unbroken settlement of Jewish people in Israel since the time of the Second Temple. Furthermore, the majority of those who were forced to leave have kept their traditions, festivals, prayers etc which go right back to the time of the Temple and before. The Israeli identity is an unbroken chain of identity with our forefathers who were promised the land by G-d. Go round Israel and you will see proof of the heritage of the Jewish people and claim to the land. The remnants of the second and first Temples, the cave of Machpela, the tomb of Rachel, of Yosef, and later the burial place of the Rambam, Rabbi Yosef Caro (who lived in Israel after the founding of Islam) etc etc Please define what Palestinian heritage is? When did you first arrive in Israel? Who were your leaders prior to Yasser Arafat and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem? If you claim to have been flourishing there for centuries, why did Mark Twain in his visit to the region in the 1800s describe most of the land as a wasteland? Why did you never cultivate the land and make it flourish if it meant so much to you? You have no claim to the land. There has never been an independant Palestine. Before the country returned to it's rightful owners, it was a British mandate and before that part of the Ottoman Empire. Most of the so called 'Palestinians' were brought in by the Turks from elseware to work the land. They never actually owned the land. The Palestinian myth is built on lies. The Jewish people have written proof of our claim to the land. Moreover, the land has been painstakingly bought back, cultivated and fought for with blood, sweat, tears and lives. Ultimately, the truth will prevail,
15. Where is the problem? Gazans are Egyptians ->
The Doc ,   Haifa, Israel   (06.29.07)
West Bankers are Jordanians and Israeli Arabs are, well, Israelis. The permanent trial of the Muslims to portray them as a nation stems from their desire to wipe Israel off the map and replace it with a Muslim entity. Furthermore, they try to link their ancestry to the Philistines (Arafat's hallucynation) but when they found out that Phillistines do not have a very good name, they recently try to link themselves to the Cnaanites! WHAT A JOKE! All the Muslims/Arabs who are here today, are ancestors of slaves, soldiers or citizens who came with the influx of the Arab/Turkish armies and they originate in Egypt, Arabia (Saudi), Syria and even Iraq. Some Muslims are Circassians who were brought by the Turks to guard the borders against the... Arabs! Tacitus - the Roman historian who documented among others the conquest of Judea in his "The Histories" book, describes how Tiberius assembled the force that brought down Judea into the hands of Rome : "Then there were strong levies of Arabs, who felt for the Jews the hatred common between neighbours, and many individual adventurers from Rome and Italy who for various reasons hoped to ingratiate themselves with an emperor whose ear might still be gained. This then was the army with which Titus entered enemy [Judea]territory." "Arabs...hatred common between neighbors..." - NEIGHBORS! Not "conquered"! No - Palestinians are NOT a nation. They belong nationally to their former countries, who gently but firmly have REJECTED them when Israel offered to return Gaza to Egypt in '78 and West Bank as parto Peres' Jordanian Plan in the '90s. Maybe King Hussein and Saadat knew something that we only discover today about the cruelty, backwardness and barbarism of the "Palestinian leaders". Palestinains can claim "their" territories for as long as they want but they cannot blame their lack of progress towards a country on Israel. If their national dream is to build a nation instead of Israel, than they are doomed to live in poverty, pain and primitivism for generations. In order to become a normal nation they only have to change one thing: their terrorist, suicidal and genocidal dream of destroying Israel.
16. Claims
joan ,   ramat aviv   (06.29.07)
Where are the archeological claims of this so called "Palestinian people"?
17. #2; Your stupidity is a sign of the times
Eliyahu   (06.29.07)
Once upon a time, nationality WAS ethnicity (and not too long ago). Judaism is not a religion, which is why Jews were excluded from being citizens of European countries unti Napoleon (and later in other countries). Judasim is a nationality. Most of the Arab countries in the Middle East are artificially created with foreign leaders forcibly introduced by England and France. Which is why they aren't democracies and why the leaders have to go to cruel lengths to exhibit their control over the indigenous population. I am a settler but in this respect, I cmmiserate with the Palestinians and feel they have been shamefully treated, not by Israel, but by the European countries after WW2.
18. It's high time to reverse Oslo and bury and forget the
Uzi ,   Haifa   (06.29.07)
concept of the PA! It was conceived in sin and could never be viable. The PA was stillborn and now it's decomposing and becoming a growing health hazard for everybody. There has never been a distinct nation of the Western Palestine Arabs who are an artificial sub-set of the Greater Palestine Arabs. The only viable nation state of all Greater Palestine Arabs is the Kingdom of Jordan. Israel and Jordan should agree on the border between them in Judea and Samaria and maybe cede Gaza to Egypt.
19. Statehood, nationhood, cultural identity
Brit4Palestine ,   London, UK   (06.29.07)
The writer has a very narrow view. The United Kingdom (Britain & NI) is made up of English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. Within that, there are further breakdowns into cornish, protestant, catholic and numerous other sub-groups. There is therefore a huge cultural and ethnic diversity within the UK. Does that mean that the UK should cease to exist as a state? This article is more an expression of the writer's wishful thinking, than it is an objective analysis of the facts.
20. Palestinian
Jewish   (06.29.07)
Palestinian, you choose to ignore history or twist it to try to make your point come across. Majority of ancient Israelites didn't convert to Islam or Christianity - most of them were expelled or ethnically cleaned by Romans sick and tired of constant revolts against their rule. There's no point to try to explain to you that very few people over the centuries would have chosen to join the religion of persecuted people and that Jews are very homogenious. As to being overwhelmed - well, seems like defeats of 50 years haven't taught you much. Keep tryin', instead of bettering your people or raising kids who want to make a difference instead of living their life in hatred and violence.
21. Sankar on Pakistan
Alex   (06.29.07)
Sankar is right. There are more Muslims living in India than in Pakistan itself. Living as a Muslim in India hasn't made them any less Muslims than Pakistani Muslims. Moreover, while Inidia is growing tremendously, Pakistan is always on a brink of a civil war or a social / financial disaster.
22. to 11 and 13
Historian   (06.29.07)
You talk about the Palestinians as if they do not exists... The ancestry of Palestinians too is complex. Arabs have not been to Palestine only at the time of the Islamic conquest as you people think. There was an Arab Christian Kingdom with its Capital Damascus ruling the Levant area including Palestine and it was a proxy to the Roman emprie. This was the Ghassanid state... The Nabateans who built the Petra in Jordan also were present in Palestine, and their villages in south Palestine talks about them... Finally, Canaanites who lived in North Arabia, Palestine , and Syria are also Arabians and no question about that. Palestinian througought the ages was used to refer to people of Palestine... No one says that the Palestinians look, or speak , are differnet for people around them... Why should they be? Just like every city has a mayor, Palestine should have a state... This is not about ethnicities and race... This is about management, self determination, and the national aspirations...
23. Distorted talkbacks
Nidal   (06.29.07)
The Israelis do not understand and will never understand respect... Go to most of the well-known Palestinians families, the largest ones and they will tell you their origins... Let me give you an Example... Al-tamimi family in Hebron, is the largest Palestinian family in the West Bank...? They can trace back their origins in Palestine to the Christian al-Tamimi family which converted to Islam, and whose chief met with the Prophet Muhammad in Mecca and pledged allegiance to him... The article jumps over many details and responders show even more ignorance... Families are tracable and many of them can trace their roots to hundreds of years back... Palestinian heritage... Of course there is a Palestinian culture... There is a Palestinian dialect, there is a Palestinian dressing that is remarkable and differnet from that in Iraq or Egypt, but similar to Lebanese and Syrians.. Similarity between Lebanese and Syrians cannot be used against the Palestinians... It is ridicuolous because at one point in time, yes we were living under one political entity but differnet geographic distribution. Finally, Palestinian peasants are the indigenous people not those Jews who came to Palestine after the Collapse of the Ottoman state. Jews are not a nationality but a religion... What is a Jew converted to Christianity or Islam, is he still considered a Jew?? NOOOO Finally, many of the semitic Jews who existed in Palestine converted to Chrisitanity including Jesus himself.... Many of those Christians converted to Islam too.... Another story that people are confused about is Arabs... Arabs have been in Palestine long long long time ago.... From the Arab Canaanites, all the way to today... Most cities in Palestine were not built by the Israelites,, but Canaanites... Canaanites are ancient Arabs.... You people keep jumping over facts.... Jews who come from all the world do not look at all like the people in the Middle East? Why should we believe that they are semitic to that matter? They are what they are Jewish... If they were not Jewish, then they woulb be Christians, or anything else....
24. Palestine before and after 1967
Jew ,   jerusalem   (06.29.07)
One fact: before 1967 so called palestinians called for Liberation of Israel. They never called for a state in the Westbank or the Gazastrip, because it was Jordan and Egypt. today interestingly they, at least officialy, claim only Westbank and Gazastrip and not Israel proper. What a people which does not know where is its country.
25. To no1 the Shami
Adam ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (06.29.07)
Until around 100 years ago, the name of one country which included Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and the PA was 'Bilad al Sham'. Anyone who had a conciousness of any country outside of his own village was of the Ottoman Empire and of al Sham. Your capital was Damascus. Likewise the only people who didn't consider themselves Shami were Jews and Maronites who both had ethnonational claims to SPECIFIC areas of al Sham that had mixed populations. As a matter of history, the Maronites had fought of outside interference and retained their autonomy for centuries on Mount Lebanon. The Jews had been trying to rebuild and got screwed for hundreds of years by the Muslims there who were a revolving immigrant population with no specific national identity. The name Palestine has NOTHING to do with your region of Shamis. A group of Bedouin who lived in the Syrian desert were ajoined to part of Bilad al Sham and the historic monarch of the Hejaz marched in a setup an emirate under British protection named after the geographic region Transjordan as opposed to Cisjordan. The only identity and reason for Lebanon is the Maronite nationalism. The name Syria used to refer to Christians in al Sham until the last 100 years. The word 'Arab' refered top the Bedouin and Arabians until 100 years ago. 100 or so years ago when the name Syria became synonimus with Bilad al Shams, the Jews of Southern Syria were known as Palestinians NOT anyone else. The non Jews were known as Southern Syrians.
26. No. 19 if you are using that argument,
bobbi ,   israel   (06.29.07)
well, Portugal, Spain, France, Belguim, Germany, Denmark and Holland are not mostly populated by the different types of British, as are the countries surrounding Israel occupied by Arabs (100 million I believe) , and oh wait, at least 10% of Europe is occupied by Arabs. Maybe Europe should be turned into a Palestinian state.
27. Where was Israel before 1948
John ,   London,UK   (06.29.07)
If there was no Palestine, then were was Israel before 1948. We all know Israel was established without consent of Palestinians people who were forcibly evacuated from their villages. Today they live as refugees in Jordan, Labanon, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, and other nations that has granted them place to live until UN decides what to do with them. This return of refugees to their former homes in one of the biggest sticking points in Arabs-Israeli conflict. The other is who gets Jerusalem. Arabs claim it was theirs for past 1400 years. Jews say they once had it 3000 years ago. I dont know how the UN will decide on this issue. In the mean time killings on both sides will continue until some cool heads sit at the table and talks things over.
28. well said
Adam ,   canton   (06.29.07)
the only analysis that is connected to present time and reality.
29. Dream on your plans!!!
Ali ,   Ramallah-Palestine   (06.29.07)
The Falsteeni people was here since God created this Earth. Jesus was born in our Holey Land and so many profets. It is the Jews people who is new comers to this land. They don't know the taste of its soil or water. Once a day over time, this Fictional State will evaporate. Falsteen knows its TRUE and Loyal Owners.
30. To Number 1, great job
Ali ,   Falsteen -Ramallah   (06.29.07)
WOW! You just put a big shoes in their mouths ( I mean ASS HOLES).
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