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Jewish groups protest Pope's decision to revive old Latin mass
Associated Press
Published: 08.07.07, 14:52
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1. Let us pray
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (07.08.07)
that Christians realize the error of their ways in praying to some Jewish guy! And, instead, turn to the one God who created us all.
2. Old Mass
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (07.08.07)
What the heck, the Catholics, too, have to believe they're the only valid religion. Everybody else thinks so. Besided, praying for something doesn't mean getting it. I've been praying to win the lotto for years, and so far, no luck. Maybe buying a couple of tickets would help, but then it wouldn't be a miracle, would it?
3. Jewish groups protests Pope's decision.
henry rosan ,   canada   (07.08.07)
Frankly, as a Catholic I think that the pope made a big mistake reviving this old prayer which may offend our Jewish brothers. Instead, I hope that he will compose a prayer in Latin SVP to ask our Lord to open the minds and hearts of Hizbullah , Al Qaeda and the other Moslems and covert them to either Christianity or Judaism because if they refuse to do so they will certainly go to hell to be with their 6 dozen ugly Arab virgins for eternity.. INSHALLAH. praise the Lord.
4. the position the pope held before was-
yahn goodey   (07.08.07)
the office of the "holy" inquisition which today is supposed to be limited to maintaining doctrinal purity as regards catholic priests,writings,doctrines,and catholic sheep.those close to the pope say he takes his work seriously.we have experienced the works of this office before-even though we are not/never will be interested in becoming catholics.
5. Interesting times
Jorgen U Bengtsson ,   Sweden   (07.08.07)
As reported by AP liberal Catholics and Jews now unite in attac on Pope Benedict who is reviled for "fundamentalism" that is he is not totaly submissive to the liberal world view. Still it could be a good thing to take a few things in consideration. The way Catholics pray is to be decided by Catholics and we who are not Catholics should not put our nose into what is not our business. It is not the Missal of 1570 that is allowed to be used, but the revised version of Pope John XXIII. If we Christians believe the prophet Jesus of Nasaret to be the Messiah we must of cause be allowed to talk about it. How could we not? It is because of him that we are Christians. We could be mistaken, but so could they be who deny him. Until that is decided by Heaven we Christians must pray as we believe and it would be a good thing if Jews could resist getting paranoid about that. I think that really is ridiculous. You should have far more important things to deal with than how we Christians pray in our churches.
6. So what?
Korem ,   New York, USA   (07.08.07)
I'm not offended and I see no reason why any of us should be.
7. To #3
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (07.08.07)
What those Muslims don't know is that those virgins are, in fact, 72 very old nuns with shotguns. :-)
8. #1
th ,   dah germany   (07.08.07)
if it were that easy! right! Jesus is/was a jewish guy. But he died for our sins. And this was only the beginning! On the other inside object: it would be better to see all the common things in jewish and christian tradition, culture, believe and hope in the future...
9. #6, Well said. I'm not offended either...
Yonatan ,   USA   (07.08.07)
And I'm not feeling any need to convert LOL! Let them pray until their blue in the face for our conversions. This Jew is staying a Jew.
10. Old Mass
Canisius ,   USA   (07.08.07)
Hey jews we will stop saying the Good Friday prayer when you change the viles mentions of Christ and Mary in your Talmud. And when the Orthodox Jews stop praying for the destruction of the followers of the Nazarene. Sound like a deal??
11. did it occur to anybody that
Yosef ben Matitya   (07.08.07)
...may be he reinstated it because we did not remove birkat.haminim from our shmona esre? don't you think? after all, we do say 3 times a day in our prayers the 12th blessing: "and for the sectarians, let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil one, uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed r thou, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners." a- in comparison, their reinstated prayer is less graphic and is actually kinder to us than ours. b- we recite this curse of the heretics, even before blessing the justs among us. After this we are surprised? As mentioned in the talmud (and their scriptures) may be we should consider first taking the beam from our eyes. no?
12. Latin Mass
Annette ,   California,USA   (07.08.07)
I have been very concerned that Vatican Council II reforms were being thrown out by this new pope. Instead of moving forward it seems the Catholic Church is moving backwards. I am very sorry to see this happen. I am becoming more dissatisfied at the changes in the Catholic Church, that I choose today not to participate, for very many reasons. The reasons are too numerous to go into here.
13. Catholics should emulate Jesus
Jesus for Jews ,   USA   (07.08.07)
Jesus said he was the way to god. And wasn't his "way" to BE a Jew? Wasn't the Last Supper a seder? On his last day, didn't he affirm by his behavior that he chose to be a practicing Jew? Shouldn't Christians be praying to become like Jesus? If Jesus were to return, would Christians urge him to forsake his Jewish religion?
14. Revival of Latin Mass
Concerned ,   New York USA   (07.08.07)
I think it's highly inappropriate for someone from a different faith tradition to be criticising the Catholic pre-Vatican II Good Friday liturgy (unless, of course, Abraham Foxman wants to let Muslims and Christians have a go at his own liturgical tradition). In the first place, it should be pointed out that the Good Friday prayer many Jewish people are upset about is actually a paraphrase of 2 Corinthians 3. It's not like the Catholic Church invented something new here. Plus, the prayer isn't an order to go out and forcibly convert Jews (that would be justifiably offensive). Instead, the prayer is part of a larger series of petitions that also asks God to bring the Protestants back to the Catholic Church. If you believe your religion is the true religion, then why wouldn't you pray that everyone else would join it? There's a big difference between praying that people will join you and going out and forcing them to join you.
15. #8 Nobody can be sacrificed for the sins of another.
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (07.08.07)
That is what the pagans used to do. In Judaism, a person does 'tshuva' (repentance and turning to HaShem) when they acknowledge they have sinned. Each person has to take responsibility for their own behaviour.
16. No Magic blood and flesh takes away sin
John ,   USA   (07.09.07)
Especially consuming it! Thats part of the mystery religion stuff. G-d has already forgiven man (Ex. 34:7), its the guilt man keeps bringing upon his children. G-d does not require human sacrifice. Sacrifices were not about a death for a death, it was about DYING TO SELF through the substitute so you couild be as if physcially dead and freed from sinning flesh guilt. Original sin / doctrine developed by Augustine (who believed in original sin = sexual lust), is not what these Holy Scriptures say; Ezek. 18:20; "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." Deut. 24:16; “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin." Jer. 31:29-30; In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. 2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he did not put to death, obeying the LORD'S command written in the book of the law of Moses, "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; each one shall die for his own sin." Sin is a choice, not a birth disease.
17. Old Good Friday NOT Reauthorized!
Rev. Joseph Ponessa ,   Glendive MT USA   (07.09.07)
In scanning rapidly the papal document (motu proprio) I noted that the old liturgical books were NOT to be used in parishes on the "sacred triduum." That means Good Friday, Holy Saturday or Easter Sunday. That means that the old Good Friday prayer for conversion of the Jews has NOT been reauthorized, and that the entire controversy is based upon a failure to read or understand the text of the papal statement. Why did the Holy Father NOT authorize an old-rite Good Friday service? I think it was because he assumed that on any given day an old Latin service would be supplemental ("extraordinary") to the new vernacular service ("ordinary"). But on Good Friday and Holy Saturday there is supposed to be a SINGLE service, and so the new service trumps the old one on those days. That is my interpretation of the intention of the lawgiver, but whether or not I am right about the intent, the words are clear--no Latin service is authorized in parishes on Good Friday, and hence the old text is not reauthorized. That was my interpretation of the latest papal ordinance. For some of my interpretations of Jewish law, consult my new book "Moses and the Torah" just released last week.
18. to #9 I offer my favorite Benjamin Disraeli quote
AY_Lamb ,   USA   (07.09.07)
Although in some respects I do agree with you i.e. (look at the Amidah) because daily I pray for the end of kofer/apostasy or heresy and even I don't think it applies to Xians and the various denominations. I have chosen to believe that Xians are collectively gnostic/hermetic Ivriyim and Sunni Mulims also for that matter. we are all Bnai Bris in one form or another we all have been introduced to Torah. This is just my opinion that I formed using my own free will and I will have to bare that. To specifically respond to your statement about Yiddish paranoia though I reiterate what Benjamin Disraeli PM GB once stated "900 years of Christian Love has unfortunately left the Jewish people a bit nervous"
19. Jesus would find Christian practices very stange
meir elazar   (07.09.07)
Jesus was a practicing Jew who would feel more at home in an Orthodox synagogue than a church. Jesus observed Sabbath on Saturday and not Sunday. He used the lunar calendar and not the Roman solar calendar. Jesus also observed the Jewish holidays including Passover (obviously). He also understood the principle of true charity as practiced by Jews and Moslems (Sedaka in Arabic and Tzedakah in Hebrew) when the charity is solely for the benefit of the needy and not for the benefactor. Christian missionaries exploit the poverty and sickness of the misfortunate people in order to advance their religious agenda at the expense of the poor people. This is why they are held in such contempt in many parts of the world.
20. Hejsan Bengtsson
Moran ,   Denmark/Israel   (07.09.07)
Of course we Jews care how catholics pray, when it includes US. And furthermore, if you don´t like to read Jewish oppinons...stay the H... away from the Y-net with your talkbacks and keep praying to whoever you like. The one who is paranoid here might be you. Do we have far more important things to deal with?? Yes my itself and not only politics and difficult neighbours. This means that we too have the right to utter concerns when it actually comes to hoping that we will give up our thousands of years old faith.
21. Why should the collection of fallen Jews...
Josh   (07.09.07)
and the fullfillment of the punishment phase of Torah be stopped. Jesus sought to test each Jew he encountered and only collect the Fallen ones. If Jews are not going to do Torah (pashoot) as G-d demands, then expect the horse (hasus-isus-jesus) of the punishment to be knocking at the door. "I have not come to bring peace but war." "to put an axe to the root of Israel." "one day they (refering to Jesus followers) will k*ll you (Jews in Temple) for my namesake" He is Devareeem 13. Who that knows Torah does not recognize the fasle prophet who tests the Israel nation. Staighten up and fly right. One G-d one love
22. #13 - Wrong
Josh   (07.09.07)
Jesus was forsaken by G-d for a reason. Jesus taught many things that according to Torah and common sense are evil and cuase society to give way to evil and allow it to be rewarded and grow. Turn the other cheek. Judge not lest yee be judged. Sitting with publicans Criticism of being good to family. Telling people not to thow stones (punishment of the guilty) because they were guilty. Disrespecting his mother. The law does not rest nor stop because one is guity. Jesus was far from being without sin, but only one who knows Torah knows this. Those who do not know Torah are Fallen and they are supposed to follow Jesus to get their just reward.
23. Judaism is the only religion…
ER ,   Canada   (07.09.07)
…that doesn’t require others to convert for them to go to heaven!
24. #13 No it didn't
Paqid 16 Netzarim ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.09.07)
The earliest source of the assertion to which you refer (that Yesh"u / I*eisous -- the Greek, from which the English J*esus was derived) said it was the way to g*od) is found in papyrus P-66, which dates from the approx. 65 years after the forcible gentile ousting of the last Netzarim Paqid (Paqid Yehudah, ha-Tzadiq) by the first gentile displacement counterfeit: the first Roman Hellenist bishop/pope (Mark, Eccl. Hist. IV.v.3), in the early 3rd century (ca. 200) C.E. The rest of your NT sources relative to that verse didn't happen until the 4th century C.E. (Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus and the Peshiteta). Your earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius (260 – 340 C.E.), documented that the original followers of Ribi Yehoshua, the Netzarim, never accepted the NT (EH III.xxvii.4-6), holding only the Tanakh to be Bible and only their own Hebrew Matityahu to be a legitimate account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. The remark you cited was NOT in Hebrew Matityahu. (It wasn't even in the Hellenist Greek-Matthew / Luke tradition or Q.) Until you're able to demonstrate the validity of your NT ***from Torah,*** it remains rejected and making assertions from your invalid book as if they are fact is deceptive. Your assertion is contrary to fact. The declaration you cite, that I*eisous claimed to be the only way to g*od, has no origins in Torah and is straight out of Roman Hellenism and their belief in Z*eus that dated back to the Egyptian I*sis and H*orus. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Yom Shishi in its on-line counterpart is a disservice to Jewish readers and a disgrace to Israel. Even ha-Aretz publishes candlelighting times on Yom Shishi. Paqid Yirmeyahu Israeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews
25. #19 Continued - Jesus would find Christian practices strange
meir elazar   (07.09.07)
I forgot to mention that he also observed the Jewish dietary laws (Kashrut/Kasher) and would never eat pork or seafood.
26. some misconceptions about jesus
m   (07.09.07)
Jesus is the mediater between Jehovah God and man. for a new covenant, he is the only begotten son of the father . Because he reflects perfectly the image of the father[ which image we were created in] He could say 'he and the father were one' he also prayed that we would become one with him and the father as well. Jesus said the father was greater then he was, but the father has put all judging into his hands. Christians have to be babtized into the name of the Father and the son, but because of lack of knowledge much confusion has resulted in both names.
27. The Roman way of dealing with inherited sin
John ,   USA   (07.09.07)
Interesting talkbacks. In order for the Yeshua not to be born tainted from the Roman Pauline Christian understanding of inherited sin (Augustines view of original sin = lust), they had to develope the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY, which meant that if Mary was born sinless, so could Yeshua (because even under Virgin birth he was still apart of her blood and flesh). This was a type of oral law, developed to bolster the view that sin is a birth disease (born a sinner) and not an action of our flesh. However, Yeshua (IMO), although a Tzaddik, believed he sinned in ignorance, since his baptism by John was a baptism / Mikvah for the repentance of sin.
28. #5 Jorge
Keren ,   SP-Israel   (07.09.07)
"You should have far more important things to deal with than how we Christians pray in our churches". There is not more important thing thandeal with a matter that means THEFT! You use our name in your prays without our permission and besides ,AND MORE IMPORTANT,you pray on a ROBBED structure. We Jews,didn't give permission to you to read our Pslms or whatever else you do based in our Torah. We didn't permit you to read nothing it is ours.You do this out of PURE ROBBERY! Contest if you can!
29. What is old is new again.
JK ,   NYC   (07.09.07)
is this dangerous yes, will Hilters come out of this yes, they will be freer to preach evil against Jews but in and of itself no because what is the % of Catholics know latin anyway, Diaspora Jews but a small % know Hebrew and look what have of Judaism, almost zero.
30. too many religions for only one god
jg ,   israel   (07.09.07)
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