Don't ask why
Amnon Levy
Published: 11.07.07, 06:52
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15 Talkbacks for this article
1. Important info
lila ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.11.07)
Only those with experience in the treatment of rape victims can know what you've just written - very important to let the court know as well.
2. Thanks for your important work.
tma   (07.11.07)
Thank you for having chosen to be a volunteer for rape victims. What would victims of rape, or any crime for that matter, do without the kindness of caring volunteers who only want to help, without any compensation? I was surprised when I read you hear of men and boys being raped. Although I heard of homosexual rape, especially in prisons, I wasn't aware that this was happening so much around us, like females being raped. Oh my G-d!! Is Israel becoming like Sodom and Gemora??? What can we do as parents, to protect our children? What skills should we teach them so they can avoid being victims, G-d forbid?
3. Thanks for your explanation
tma   (07.11.07)
of the survival mechanism used by victims. Following my shock upon learning of males being rape victims, I learned something else. Although I sympathise with Katsav's victims, it was sometimes hard for me to believe their accounts. I kept asking "if he really did these things, then why did she stay (referring to "Aleph")? Why didn't she just quit her job and pressed charges from the beginning? It's so complex what happens to people when they are victimized, it's not black and white like most of us think. It's interesting the way victims will try to "accept" what's happening to them in order to try to make sense out of it, or at least to be able to survive this. We still don't know what happened between Katsav and "Aleph" but I'm now aware that she very well could have been a victim and yet have chosen to remain at her post. I'm glad I'm not the judge in this case.
4. Mr. Levy thx 4 important info!
5. This is really big BS!!!!!! Let everyone off then!
Tinkerbell ,   Israel   (07.11.07)
Sure - with that statement that stories can contradict - just let every female cry rape and convict the guys. What happens if the guy is traumatized by the consequences of being blackmailed? Oh but no - I suppose that doesn't count. I don't think I have ever lived in a country so full of double standards and hypocrisy.
6. Amnon Levy is also a little confused
Cordier   (07.11.07)
Amnon Levy is also a little confused. I can imagine that in some case (maybe one per cent ?) a woman is lying and want just to attack a former lover accusing him of rape because he has not divorced his wife by example and not marrying her. I find amazing that never in this article Amnon Levy think a second that maybe a woman who call his rape center is lying. In his mind women are all innocent people and men are always vile culprits. Amnon, women love sex. I have been in a concert of a famous married artist in Paris, thousand young women around me scrying "i love him, i m dying to have sex with him"... If this artist decide to make love with some of these women i am not convinced he is a serial rapist and these girls white and innocents women... I think that with your opinion you have to put in prison the great majority of the male artists of this planet. I think also that the sole confused discourse of a confused woman must not been a proof in a tribunal. We are "egaux devant la loi" the words of a woman is not worthing more thant the words of a man. If there is a rape you have to bring more proofs than the (confused or not) words of a woman or a man.
7. #3-Reply to tma
mr ,   Israel   (07.11.07)
I too wondered why "Aleph" remained in her job and was told by someone who seemed to know all the facts that she was harrassed by Katsav and warned that she wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere else ! That is why she eventually left for the USA. It seems we women have to beware of certain men with money and in high places ! If I personally encountered such behaviour I would have raced from the office no matter the consequences. But then I'm from another generation (was young in the 40"s !) a woman
8. The other side of the story
Anon ,   Israel   (07.11.07)
My wifes sister when she was younger had a boyfriend who she was infatuated with. When he unexpectedly finished with her she was very angry. She slashed the tires of his car. When he got a restraining order against her she tried to get back at him by telling the police that he had raped her. Fortunately this was 20 years ago and the police did not give her the time of day. I wonder what would have happened today!
9. Raped by a lawyer
RAPED BY A LAWYER ,   ISAREL   (07.11.07)
My "boyfriend" a lawyer raped me I was so shocked ,he knew what to do...a friend of hime came home..I put a lot of make up to hide my hits...I smiled..My hair covering the bruise on my cheek...it took me 3 or 4 years to understand that I went through a trauma and only 4 years later I could face myself...and eventually the court to complain.I never did.Yet I have a scare.
10. #7
tma   (07.11.07)
I know some women make up stories sometimes and get men in a lot of trouble, sometimes ruining their family lives, their marriages, their relationships with their relatives and children, even ruining their lives. It's so awful what people will do out of spite. Such people will be punished on Judgement Day, but meanwhile their lives are ruined. I pray that my sons will never be wrongly accused of a crime they didn't commit. Yet you also have victims whom no one believes, and they have to publicly testify and be humilated all over again. It's a tough world we live in.
11. Complicated Issue.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (07.11.07)
There is a good deal of hypocritical behavior when dealing with sexual matters. Motivations & temptation play a great role. Self-deception & second thoughts are ever present. While there are heinous instances of forceful rape, many cases are in very gray areas, with no proof & no witnesses. People's behavior in sexual matters is not necessarily rational nor is our reaction to hearing allegations of sexual misconduct. The sad fact of the matter is that people lie, distort, manipulate, rearrange memory, etc. especially in sexual matters. How people feel before sex is not necessarily how they feel after. Misinterpretation of another's feelings is all too common. The job of the judicial system is to be as objective as possible & somehow sort out claims & counter-claims - no mean task in cases of "he said, she said" - & come to some conclusion that has a legal basis. No one should make a rush to judgement nor can judgement be skewed in favour of a supposed victim, a view seemingly supported by Mr. Levy.
12. Guidelines needed
Ilan ,   Ariel   (07.11.07)
Society needs to put up some guidelines so that: People can maintain their good names, until their guilt is certain, Victims can maintain their anonymity Where guilt is certain, victims are compensated and attackers punished. The Katsav vs A has been a trial by media that was not able to determine whether Katsav was truly guilty of the accusations. Perhaps if the police has investigated before leaking to the press their evidence would have been less compromised. Something obviously went wrong though.
13. Amnon Levi: Thank you for this enlightening article
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (07.11.07)
14. But would you need independent prosecution?
Steve ,   USA   (07.11.07)
B"H I am not sure Manzuz can prosecute this in the way you are suggesting. Perhaps there needs to be a lawyer focussed on these sorts of cases. Mazuz made the point he did not think he could get a conviction. How would his bringing it to court get a better resutl?
15. This well meaning person suggests a recipe for disaster
Alan ,   Pittsburgh, USA   (07.12.07)
This article is a dangerous attack on a criminal justice system. You lulled the reader into sympathy with a volunteer crisis worker and the victims of sexual assault, and then changed the subject to inject dangerous ideas into criminal prosecution. You have to separate assistance and counseling to anyone who believes they are a victim of sexual assault, and the criminal (and political) culpability of an accused attacker. When assisting and counseling you don't judge the victim and try to invalidate what they believe they experienced. (I claim no knowledge or expertise of treatment or sex crimes in general) If victims of assault often have difficulty explaining themselves or articulating what happened to them in a manner that makes sense, that very well may be a common consequence of sexual assault victimhood. From a treatment point of view, I assume it makes sense to treat them as if it occurred as they perceive it to have occurred. However, when publicly accusing someone and charging them with a crime, you cannot try to excuse an incomplete or nonsensical accusation merely because you claim that is a common occurrence of being a victim of sexual assault. If the accusation is not clear, logical and consistent you can't expect accused to be held accountable. That would allow, like the Salem Witch Trials and their drowning test of guilt, that anyone who appears traumatized can make any kind of accusation and be excused for any failings of their story because its common for victims to be unable to accurately, completely and logically recount what occurred. It is important to make clear to all that there is no excuse or immunity from sex crimes, but you cannot condemn people publicly and criminally without an adequate case against them or you create a situation where some victims are the falsely accused rather than their accusers. I make no judgement on Katsav or Ramon although I imagine their both sleazey, but you cannot ruin someone if you cannot sufficiently prove they committed what they are accused of. We just experienced that in the US with the false accusations against three Duke college athletes whose lives were ruined because the prosecutor proceeded on a case without legal merit based on accusations that didn't make sense and were contradictory. They have now been completely cleared but will never really get their lives back. Treatment and criminal prosecution are two unrelated worlds and should not be confused.
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