wonderful, normal and natural and a great way to enjoy the Land of Israel. And it isn't a lack of torah, since these yeshiva students had plenty of that. Its outdoor skills. Too bad religious and secular in this country can't learn more from each other. We each have something to teach and to learn.

You're quite perceptive. In fact, they've banned most broccoli, leafy greens,raspberries,blackberries and asparagus because of purported insect infestation. The only cruciferous veggies they permit are soaked in potentially hazardous pesticides

In your first tb you wrote : tora keeping Jews were saved , no matter what the circumstances were[ not word per word ] Well i asked you what about the 6 million , many or most of them tora keeping Jews . If you begin with the sins of precedent generations , or others , i'll ask you , and await an answer . : why then the 1.5 million children who were also murdered . Also for the sins of others ? No YB , there is NO god to protect Jews . Not tora keeping or seculars .

your name speaks for itself.Hashem yerachem.

#31 you say my views are wrong and bad, OK! Let’s look at the Haredi community and let’s look at the non religious community, shall we. How many Haredi people who listen to the G’dolim like Reb Eliyashiv the Gerrer Rebbe and the like are sitting in jail for any crimes, how are their children in schools/Yeshivas, behaving treating their parents, how many Tzdoka/Charity/G'Machim organizations are there in Bnei Brak and how many are in Tel Aviv, The list goes on and on. I suppose that the torah learning Views are screwed up and your world view is the right one. Well I choose the torah view, I would like that me & my children to be and act like them and NOT like you.

Yes, they followed Torah - at least their version of it - but they obviously had little or no experience with the world outside their study hall. When I was last in Israel, I went on a long hike in the Golan with a group of students from the U of Haifa on a hot day in August. We traveled with an experienced guide who checked that we each had some 4-1/2 liters of water for the outing. How much were these bocherim carrying? Were they wearing loose, light colored clothing, or black? We all came through with nothing more than tired feet - even I, who am well past "student" age. That these two unfortunates were felled by nothing more than a hot summer day shows how poorly they are trained for the real world.

Charles, let me quote what I said & let’s talk about it. “A. If you look in the Torah you will find that the Jewish people are different then others. When Jews died in a war they did not blame their skills or lack of it, only their sins or lack of Torah learning. History showed that when the Jews kept the Torah they were saved NO MATTER what the circumstance was.” Now look back to the times of Moses when they all kept the torah, when they went out to war, everyone came back, not even one dead, amazing, wouldn’t you say! And when Yehoshuah (Tanach- Yehoshuah 7) concord Israel and one person/36 people (Medrish says one that was as big as 36) was killed right away the red flags went up and Yehoshuah ripped his clothing… “Why was he killed” it turns out that g-d told him that they sinned… Lets stop for a second Yehoshuah could have said this is war and people die, and we are lucky that it is only one person. NO by us Jews if we keep the torah NO ONE DIES. Sin kills, the killings can happen in a variety of ways. WW2 & the like people sinned in droves, M'challel shabbos, adultery and the like. I was talking in principal that sin and lack of learning torah brings the worst and the opposite is true more torah learning & obeying the torah is the best security. Now like I wrote in my 2nd TB. It is a sin to put your self in danger and if a person needs a vacation in order to learn better and be a better Jew then he should indeed take that vacation/hike/etc and he will get rewarded for doing so just like if a person eats and drinks so to have energy to serve G-d. However he needs do to it in the safest way possible. In terms of why Hashem killed out so many children and righteous people, I DON’T KNOW! But I don’t question him, There was once a person on a plane who wanted to see the cockpit, while exiting the plane he passed by the cockpit and stopped to take a look, amazed at all the thousands of buttons… while looking on in amazement he realized there was a little red button sticking out on the side, he began to wonder what is that for? And why is it red? He turned around to the pilot who was standing there and asks what is that red button for? The pilot looks at him and says, “Tell me young man, all of the other buttons you know about and understand what they are used for, just this red button bothers you. You seem to understand everything, the entire universe how G-d runs it etc. you just have a couple of questions, like why did G-d let 6 million of his people perish in the most horrific matter. Well I guess you will have to ask him your self. It does not change the FACT that not sinning, Torah learning & serving G-d was & is the protection for us Jews. It does not mean we don’t protect ourselves We should thank the yeshiva people for learning and serving G-d the way they do it protects you & me, have you not sinned to G-d, who is protecting you from the wrath of G-d? They are, thank them and appreciate it, as I do. P.S. I have a question for you, Has it NOT bothered you the fact that through out our exile from our second temple on, we have been prosecuted and murdered by all the nations? Why us Jews? What bad things have the Haredi Jews done to those governments/people through out the years that in every generations they came upon us to hurt us?????? Think about it

I did not say we shouldn't protect ourselves, we always had an army but it’s strength was in the Jewish nation obeying the Torah and mitzvos. King David fought wars, infact he went out to fight HIMSELF in the front lines, could you imagine a bigger Haredi fighting in our army. Our Tanach is full of wars fought by Haredies however the strength of the army is dependent on the ENTIRE NATION obeying the Torah, that’s a fact and it was proven many times in history.

It is a total embarrasment that such ignorant people are "Leaders" of Yeshivot. Which tractate of the Gemara teaches such logic that if a Yeshiva student goes out for a hike to see Eretz Yisrael and dies of dehydration that one must stop walking? Oh yes, it must be Baba Meisin. Stupid Elyashiv and Steinman - IT MEANS THAT IN SUMMER ONE MUST DRINK LARGE QUANTITIES OF WATER. One's natural thirst is not adequate for the amount of fluids that the body requires, especially when hiking. But of course it is more important to exercise the Yashvan in the Yeshiva than using ones head. We say in the morning "Hanoten Lasechvi Vina Le'havchin Bein Yom V'Layla". Note that such wisdom is not the monopoly of roosters. People, even Rabbis, are encouraged to engage their brains once in a while. As the great Sage HaRav HaGaon Saman Trei said:" Adif Lishtok V'leheraot Tipesh M'Liftoach Peh V'lehachasir kol Safek".

Why 1.5 million children and babies ?

but the father of a woman I work with said that all those children -even the infants -disobeyed their parents in some way. He is a Holocaust survivor himself. Still wacko.

As I see it, the relatively short vacation from yeshiva is the young person's only break from a stultifying society. A chance to get out and about, in small groups, in fresh air. Denying them this leads to a cabin fever, jail type syndrome. Hiking in moderation lads, but don't quit.