Opinion
Oh, those funny Arabs
Dror Ze'evi
Published: 29.07.07, 20:06
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29 Talkbacks for this article
1. Half right
David Olesker ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.29.07)
Indeed, the serious debate in the Arab and Muslim world is ignored by most Western media. I recently told a group of students in Cambridge (UK) how ridiculous it is to have to learn about Arab human rights and pro-democracy movements from specialist sites like MEMRI.org. However, the rampant antisemitism and hatred of the west is a legitimate issue to report on, to long ignored.
2. a valid point in the wrong direction
izzy d   (07.29.07)
These stories are indeed meant to lull the Israeli viewer into a false sense of understanding when it comes to our paly neighbors. However the REASON is such that if the media were to publish the real stories, the despair over a possible reconciliation between Israel and them will overwhelm. after all if we were to focus on the strange ruling of rabbis (strange because the author cannot grasp anyone limiting themselves to anything as naive and silly as actual BELIEF IN GOD) and other marginal Israeli news they would miss the meat of the matter, that Israel wants peace and wants to solve the issues of the day, while those real stories of the paly media consistently show a reality unwilling to even recognize Israel as a legitimate state.
3. 1 - why?
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (07.29.07)
why is ridiculous to read translations from memri, etc?
4. They don't have a free press
josef cohen ,   herzliya   (07.29.07)
Mr. Zee'vi neglects that there is no free press in the Arab countries or Iran. There are no balanced debates or dissenting views presented. It is ridiculous to compare a private opinion that is reported in Israel with opinions that are approved for broadcast or print by other ME gov'ts. Does Mr. Zee'vi really not understand why characters like Nahul immediately get the attention of Israeli audiences? The truth is that ME media is so full of antisemitic propaganda that most people rather than pay attention prefer to ignore it as it is far to depressing. When commentators, frequently in official gov't or party media outlets make antisemitic or ridiculous pseudo-scientific pronouncencements it means that at the minimum they are acceptable to the gov't or actually the gov't opinion. And as for the use of reports of Israel press? Mr. Mr. Zee'vi is being a little disingenuous. They largely just quote the most left wing commentators, Aloni, Pappe etc. who use terms like facist, racist or apartheid to describe Israel to confirm their opinion of Israel. Or they quote the right wing nutters to confirm their paranoid Jewish conspiracies. For consideration, Josef Cohen
5. Old propaganda tactic to dehumanise a people
Greg   (07.29.07)
Its happened for 100's of years.
6. This article is complete nonsense
Danny   (07.29.07)
What arab and iranian worlds are "conducting a serious debate"? I have never met an Arab who accepts Israel's right to exist, not one. At best they grudging accept it is a fact and they can't do anything about it. The anti-semitic views are part and parcel of this. If Mr Ze'evi is an arabic speaker he will know when Arabs talk about Israelis they will use the word Jews. What are the key arab outlets? TV-wise they are Al-Jazeera and Al-Manar - post last year's war. Whilst Al-Jazeera is a bit more sophisticated, Al-Manar EXACTLY matches the "stereotype" Mr Zeevi is attacking here. The "best of Israeli articles" is cut and pastes to "prove" their view. So you'll have quotes from Ha'aretz and Yediot to "prove" Israel lost last year, along with quotes from Winograd and MKs like Gal-On. It is not more sophisticated than using Farfur as examples of crazy extremist thinking.
7. I can recommend a good book on this
Toni   (07.30.07)
It's "The Arab Mind" (Pataki), don't know if it's in print
8. The best enemy one can have...
Gazan ,   Gaza, Palestine   (07.30.07)
is an enemy that is impartial, that can one day become a good friend
9. This guy's an idiot - he should read the western press
Scott ,   USA   (07.30.07)
If you read the English language press, Israel consists of nothing but crazy rabbis and perverts. And there is nothing "funny" about the Palestinian killer bee. And it isn't covered here as much as crazy rabbis.
10. true
woww ,   LA, USA   (07.30.07)
The article has a valid point, there has not been such a furious debate in the arabic world among the scholars and even just ordinary people about right and wrong past and future their place in the world and their role in history since the 14th century. The west and Israel mainly ignoring it.
11. But it's not just a minute portion of the population
Micha   (07.30.07)
that's being affected by these types of child abuse shows. it's millions. So, no, there isn't a moral equivalent to the obscure teachings of a rabbi that maybe affects a few hundred people. And, no, it's not the moral equivalent of the teachings of a rabbi that prohibits you getting your hair cut. Nobody cares about how the arabs want to segregate as far as haircuts go. However, we do care about their disgusting tv shows that completely abuse their children and turn their kids into time bombs. Yes, that's what we care about. And, no, there isn't an equivalent of that in the Jewish world. Try again.
12. Actually PMW and MEMRI monitor quite broadly
Ilan ,   Ariel   (07.30.07)
And their ability to link the excerpts they publish to the behavior of Arab regimes has a much better track record then Zeevi suggests. Of course, Zeevi has publshed his thoughts on why Israel "Must Give Hamas a chance" (Ynet July 5 ) and as someone from BGU no one would expect any better from him.
13. 3 Answer as to "Why?"
David Olesker ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.30.07)
My point was, that since MEMRI's information is now freely available in Western languages, we should be seeing it in the mainstream media.
14. #7 Tony - RE: Your Book Recommendation
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (07.30.07)
The book is called "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai. It's an excellent study, dealing with child rearing, personality formation, cultural norms, etc. all supported by well documented studies, research, & interviews. I lent it to an Arab friend of mine before I moved to Israel - he shortly thereafter stopped talking to me since I am now the "Zionist enemy" - The book is hard to come by, I ordered it from a bookstore but they had no copies in stock. Anyone who wants to better understand the mentality of this region will find it very insightful.
15. Another of the "Politically Correct Brigade"
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (07.30.07)
This is another attempt by the thought police to enforce "politically correct" policies on an already gullible population. Europe & America have essentially stifled meaningful debate on Islam in the mainstream media, on college campuses, & among most politicians. Rather than an effort to have honest, blunt, free debate this is an effort to conceal not reveal truth. Let me tell you something - while our media is not exactly a paragon of intellectual achievement, there are from time to time, some very good reports. In any case, more serious information is easily available elsewhere on the internet. MEMRI is an excellent source, I can also recommend Jihadwatch which has numerous links to other sites. Oh, those funny Arabs - but you are being disingenious if you think that these funny items don't reveal more about the mentality of our neighbors than most of the more serious articles on the subject. In particular, we all remember the melons with AIDS or the arrest of 14 squirrels in Iran. Aside from giving us all a well-deserved laugh, they very much illustrate the paranoid conspiracy theory mentality so wide-spread in Muslim society. By the way, are you afraid of humour? Lighten up, we have a right to laugh. And we certainly have a right to make fun of anything that is as crazy as what we hear from our hate-filled neighbors. Are you afraid to offend? Well, they deserve to be offended - they certainly don't mind offending us.
16. Bravo Terry, right on the mark
James   (07.30.07)
the best response i read so far
17. The Arab Mind
Steven ,   Palm Beach, USA   (07.30.07)
Another book that is illuminating, re the Arab mentality is, "The Closed Circle", by David Pryce-Jones. More recent than the Patai book and more readable as well. Can be found at Amazon.
18. You're missing the point.
woww ,   LA, USA   (07.30.07)
Know thy enemy. Of course we deserve a good laugh and humor is the best tool to difuse anger, but the point of the article is that we must know the arabic/islamic culture, not just guess. The hardest is to fight the unknown. One of the worst things for all the western negotiators whom ever tried to get anywhere is that they simply have know idea how to bargain with their counterparts and constantly miscommunicate. The ability to read in between the lines is essencial to understand the inner workings of the arabic countries/societies which of course are as different as many they are. To compare a marocain to a saudi or either of them to a gazan is almost meaningless. Israel has/had the unique resource of knowledge about the arabs among it's sephardic population, people who actually grew up and were familiar with all their customs a generation ago and looks like we have wasted it completely. That is a shame and that is dangerous.
19. most talkbacks here prove Ze'evils
Honda ,   Civic   (07.31.07)
20. most talkbacks here prove Ze'evi's point,
Honda ,   Civic   (07.31.07)
that most Israelis (and westerners) are so brainwashed by the selectiveness of excerpts of Arab media they receive from their local media that they cannot fathom the idea of serious and civilized discourse on Arab media, and that the most followed media channels in the Arab world are western-"imported" music video, movie and foreign entertainment like Rotana 24/7 live video clips featuring such sexy hotties as Haifa Wehbi and Elissa; or a channel that shows a constant flow of American programs and sitcoms like 24, Lost, House, Prison Break, Orange County Choppers, etc.. such as MBC. News channels are probably only the 5th or 6th most watched channels; and within news channels the pro-western al-arabiya is closely second behind al-jazeera, and that al-manar is a very marginally-watched news channel amongst the arab world; essentially confined to arab shiites while most arab sunnis despise its very explicitly pro-shiite and pro-iranian propaganda and endorsement. I could go on for ever on how uninformed western audiences are when it comes to arab media; and the biggest let-down is the way they are absolutely convinced about their negative believes even though they admittedly don't speak a bit of arabic nor even watch for a second arab tv channels..... it makes you wonder if westerners are truely the "scientific and logical" culture they claim to be; the one that only accepts conclusions through scientifically-researched clues and evidence.
21. #20, you spent any actual time in the Middle East?
Danny   (07.31.07)
You go into any shop, any hotel and there is a good chance it is running Al-Jazeera. During the last war, every single Palestinian I knew was watching Al-Manar. You go to Syria and it is Al-Manar all the way and next to no one watches Al-Arabiya - apart from maybe in Saudi where they try to ban Al-Jazeera. You may have Rotana in Macdonalds or other fast food outlets and phone ringtones may blare out elissa and haifa and nancy but you are seriously underestimating the appetite of the average arab for news. I remember having a long conversation with a Palestinian cabbie in Amman just after the war about Ahmadenejad's interview on Al-Arabiya - and virtually everyone of the Palestinians I knew in Jordan saw it too. As for "pro-Shiite" and "pro-Iranian" propaganda, I would say Al-Manar has more anti-Israeli and anti-American propaganda in keeping with the general philosophy of negativity of Hizbollah, who can tell what they hate and what they fight but not what they want or when they would cease "resisting". Any chance you have some "scientific" data to back up your claim that Arabs aren't interested in news or politics?
22. How much time do you spend?
woww ,   LA, USA   (07.31.07)
Danny, in what language did you talk to them? I bet it was not Arabic, rather English. There is a huge difference between the "official "opinions and reality. People who live in repressive societies rarely admit to a foreigner ther true feelings, what goes on at home is a lot different of what they are saying in front of the cameras. Honda is right, so is Zeevi, and this is our loss.
23. #22, actually it was arabic
Danny   (07.31.07)
And I spent two years in Jordan, six months in Lebanon and Syria. I am a fluent arabic speaker from an Iraqi family. Are you an arabic speaker? Did you spend anytime in the Middle East? Bet the answer is no to both. If you had you'd know that in Lebanon and in Jordan at least they are very, very, very keen to talk politics - and are in fact notorious for it in the Middle East. Even in Syria they are keen to know about the outside world. So far neither you nor "Honda" have been able to produce any actual information, ancedotal or otherwise to back your case up. Are you suggesting Arabs aren't watching the news? Are you suggesting Al-Manar isn't popular in Syria? Are you suggesting Al-Jazeera isn't widely watched in Jordan and Lebanon? From Honda's claim about Al-Manar, I doubt he has ever watched it. When I watched it last, it had a programme about a group of people organising reconstruction a la "the apprentice" a debate on the "American project" in the Middle East, a soap about Palestinians evicted from their homes by Zionists and constant coverage of the "Tent City" in Beirut with the slogan "No return to the past". I didn't see anything explicitly Shia related, rather they went out their way to call themselves "the opposition". So 'fess up, you speak arabic? What dialect? How did you learn it? Did Honda learn arabic? Does he have any "scientific" data to share? Because all I have heard is [false]assumptions and [false] allegations and judging from the channels Honda quotes, I bet english is all he speaks.
24. confession :D
woww ,   LA, USA   (08.01.07)
Here it comes... Yes, I do speak Arabic not as well as Hebrew but fluent enough :D I grew up in several countries and still have family from Casablanca to Aleppo. Then I moved to Israel and from there to the USA. Did you even read Honda's post? "and within news channels the pro-western al-arabiya is closely second behind al-jazeera, and that al-manar is a very marginally-watched news channel " or do you have comprehension problems? Exactly the point al-jazeera is the most watched, then comes al-arabiya and the least watched is al-manar. Because that is the most sheer propaganda fueled. The arabs are not stupid either, it would be beneficial for us, Israel and the west to understand that. Sure they do not love us but they don't intend to lag behind the rest of the world forever either. Here is one of my favorite blog's link, take a look you might like it . ( I hope you were telling the truth and really do speak and read as well Arabic) http://www.al-9awl.blogspot.com/ THX
25. #24, I am the other way round
Danny   (08.01.07)
I did the opposite to you and now live in Israel but can pass for non-Israeli - normally get confused with Iranian or Turkish. Certainly in the Levant, Arabs are news-junkies. The idea that news channels are 5th or 6th is simply not borne out by my experience. I also have hardly ever seen people watching Al-arabiya with the sole exception of the interview with Ahmadenejad after the war last summer. I have also never met an arab who doesn't have some crazy idea from the non-english speaking cabbie who thought Americans make "too many plots" in his taxi, to another who claimed Bin Laden is Jewish to another who claimed all Jews[read:Israelis] are from Germany giving the example of Mofaz. I don't really know the North African types - I assume Mr Amlou is Morrocan... - maybe you should read azama al-mashru3a al-wataniya al-falistiniya as an example of intellectuals talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict, one that was positively reviewed by people like Al-hayat. It has alot of the stereotypes of the 2nd intifada.
26. danny
Honda ,   Civic   (08.01.07)
I'm a native Lebanese, born and raised in Beirut and lived a considerable amount of time in Syria. In these countries I am (or pass for) a local and I get much more direct access to locals' opinions than a foreigner who speaks arabic with an Iraqi accent. Al-manar is a very pro-shiite network, starting from the shiite-style head covers worn by its female anchors, to the shiite-style prayer calls (and times) and the shiite religious rhetoric of its programs (without mentioning the month long Ashura commemoration each year that does nothing but deepen the historic wounds between sunnis and shiites). Locals are very much aware of such subtleties that might be lost on foreigners (even if they speak some arabic) and therefore the majority of arabs (since they are mostly sunnis) take al-manar with a grain of salt. Sure it is watched in Syria and Palestine since Hamas, Hezbollah and the Syrian regime are for the moment the best of allies; but if you really have been to Syria you should know that it's not the best of ideas for Syrian citizens to broadcast anti-syrian channels in public. There is plenty of viewership stats available to back up my claims regarding al-manar being a marginal player; and a quick Google search can return many interesting finds regarding arab media in general. Most westerners are very opposed to al-jazeera and its policies, however this channel has been nothing less than revolutionary compared to what passed for "news" before its inception. Not so long ago, the word "Israel" was rarely mentionned in official arab media, you were the evil "zionsit entity" and the only Israelis to be shown on arab TV were soldiers or scary-looking ultra-orthodox jews in full black gear (besides the classical jew with horns in political cartoons). On the other hand, al-jazeera hosts Israeli officials on a daily basis who get to express their point of view, and does regular reporting from Israel and conducts man on the street interviews with Israeli citizens on issues not always directly related to politics. By doing so, it has for the first time in the history of arab media put a personal, human face to Israel which was until now portrayed as this uniform non-human entity that is 100% pure evil all the time... At the very least, you could say that al-jazeera views Israel as a fait-accompli and deals with it as such, while before al jazeera arab media simply ignored the existence of this State. And it is this first step taken by al-jazeera that has allowed for less anti-israeli channels such as al-arabiya, LBC, MBC, etc.. to become accepted by a significant percentage of arab viewers. This change in attitude towards Israel is very obvious to anyone who has closely watched arab media over the past 20+ years, and not for a couple of months in Jordan and Syria; and this change and improvement in arab media is slowly but surely growing.
27. re: danny
Honda ,   Civic   (08.01.07)
I never claimed arabs aren't interested in news or politics, however this isn't very high on their lists of priority. Sure in places of business it's considered more appropriate to have news channels on than music video networks since arabs, like most other peoples, prefer to project a serious image when dealing with strangers in public locations, especially if it's in their workplace. And this is also the case when someone is having a conversation with a complete stranger (a foreigner on top of that) for the first time. However, when these people go home to their families, and when they get together with their buddies and return to their informal self, I can guarantee you from direct, personal experience that news are not the first thing arabs have on their mind. The Middle East has been in a state of conflict for close to a century now, and most people are simply conditioned to this and try to have some semblance of normalcy in their day to day life. Finally, even if every man, woman and child in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the PA are all pro-manar and pro-Hamas Suicide-mouse as you would like to portray them, this still doesn't entitle you to use the term "Arabs" and project your ideas on the "Arabs". The entire population of these countries represents about 30 million out of the 250 million people that are identified as Arabs. Hardly a majority as you would like to claim.
28. #27, I talk about Syria and Lebanon etc
Danny   (08.01.07)
because I have first hand experience of them as opposed to the gulf states which I have very limited experience and zero experience of North Africa - I find Morrocans quite hard to understand. I have never heard or expected to hear criticism of Assad regime in Syria or the King in Jordan - the closest I got to that was a friend making a joke about how an english friend of mine's arabic "was as good as the kings".... Anyway thanks for the actual information and opposed to rhetoric.
29. Finally a dialog...
woww ,   LA, USA   (08.01.07)
I'm glad to see that at least here there is a dialog, :D 1, Yes Mr. Amlou is morrocan. 2, As I pointed out in post #18 and Honda just restated it in #27 it's meaningless to lump together all arabs. I have very limited experience with Saudis or the Emirates. :D but plenty in N. Africa, Lebanon and Syria 3, I can pass as anything around the Mediterranian :D I'm from an old sailor/merchand family (surprise suprise) My accent is mainly Parisian French. :D 4, I suspect you have trouble understanding the mentality simply because you never had to live for a long period of time under a repressive regime. Of course in all public places you will see the official propaganda channels and nobody is going to make a remark about it in public. Who the heck wants the police to show up in the middle of the night to take him for a chat. However behind closed doors the story changes, but only among close friends. Most of our friends knew we were jewish but never ever would any of them mention it in public, only as French that returned to France after the cololnial system broke down and came back to work. It's a well rehearsed game of "we all know but we do not talk about it." 5, Honda is right, Al-Jazeera started to bring up issues and started to ask questions that were impossible to be asked just 10 years ago. Jewish stereotypes are everywhere but finally it started to break, 1500-2000 years of jewish history (respectively to Morocco and Syria) does not simply disappear. Not only because the buildings and other reminders are still there but also the old people still remember the families that used to live among them. People want to what happened, how the local doctor or engineer's family turned into "murderous zionist entity" especially that they had to leave everything behind. I have no illusions of they liking the jews (even though I hardly had any bad memories) but they are curious. As humans are, there is no difference whatsoever. Most of them want the same thing (an ordinary life) like you and me. 6, The biggest difference I've ever seen is among the arabs living in Israel. Probably beacause they are the only ones in everyday contact with jews. :D but this one you know well enough I assume.
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