Opinion
Time for change
Avshalom Vilan
Published: 22.08.07, 14:03
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26 Talkbacks for this article
1. so wrong
meretz ,   yuppistan, Israel   (08.22.07)
Apparently Vilan is so intent on keeping his buddy Olmert in power that he is willing to write the silliest articles. First, if Vilan has any evidence of any rabbi performing a crime he should immediately go to the police. Second, why did Vilan support his party members Sarid and Oz when they not only incited insubordination but actually terrorist attacks on Israeli infrastructure to impose their opinions? Third, Vilan is attacking the Supreme Court which has ruled that soldiers may not perform illegal orders. It seems that Vilan is so filled with hatred that he is willing to sacrifice any principle to destroy his enemies. Israel will not survive if Vilan's philosophy of robotic dedication to military orders becomes a reality.
2. Israelis should not have to pledge allegiance to bear arms
(08.22.07)
It's a right, not a priviledge.
3. Mr. Vilan's choice for final quote tells all
eli ,   ranaana, israel   (08.22.07)
The problem, my dear Mr. Vilan, is we have become a nation that doesn't stand for what we were promised it would stand for... we have become the ideal amerikan satellite state, not the proud Jewish Nation. And say what you will about those trouble making Rabbis, but they sure as heck aren't ripping Jews from their homes to satisfy some sort of half baked amerikan foreign policy initiative.
4. Framed Arguments are False
David ,   Israel   (08.22.07)
The IDF code of ethics states a soldier does not have to follow an order contrary to halacha, and by implication suggests that such an order would be anathema to the spirit and ethos of a Jewish Army. As such, you are ignoring a major tenet of the IDF ethos in order to strike at people you disagree with. Its intellectually dishonest and pretty much means, in terms of your opinion, that the emperor has no clothes. To fit your so called vision you would have to change the IDF code of ethics, not the oath. Of course, one who has no ethics - as evinced by this lovely piece of yellow journalism - has no business advising others on what should and shouldn't form their ethical core.
5. Stupid! You should be asking why they are disobeying orders.
eliyahu   (08.22.07)
The fact is, only sick and twisted boys sign up in the IDF hoping to go beat up their fellow jews. The onloy reason to do army is an altruistic desire to protect those you identify with. Could you please admit that the orders are the problem and not the soldiers. Take a hint. Your values are sick and twisted and not all of the soldiers are willing to be like you. Following orders is not an excuse to do immoral acts.
6. I say the original wording better
Steve ,   USA   (08.22.07)
B"H The new wording suggested in this article is convoluted. The original oath is simple. The suggestion to sign to have a soldier sign a contract under duress is not valid. Only the IDF is authorized to sign contracts on its behalf.
7. What about a pledge of allegiance by the MKs?
Canadian Otter   (08.22.07)
Shouldn't the PM and all MKs swear allegiance to ISRAEL, instead of its neighbors? Or the US? Shouldn't the court judges also pledge to interpret laws irrespective of whether the Israeli citizen is a Jew or an Arab? A rightwinger or a leftwinger?
8. #4 - David, excellent comment
Canadian Otter   (08.22.07)
9. Is Israel safe for Jews?
I. Schreiber   (08.22.07)
While the IDF is being prepared to attack Jewish settlers, the USA has been training Palestinians for years on how to kill. And who are considered the Palestinians' enemies? The Jews of course. "United States-run programs that train militias from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah organization have been utilized to kill Jews and were instrumental in the "success" of the Palestinian intifada that began in 2000, a senior Fatah militant trained by the U.S. told WND. "I do not think that the operations of the Palestinian resistance would have been so successful and would have killed more than 1,000 Israelis since 2000 and defeated the Israelis in Gaza without these [American] trainings," said Abu Yousuf, a senior officer of Abbas' Force 17 Presidential Guard unit in Ramallah. "Prime Minister Ehud Olmert last month granted Yousuf amnesty along with 178 other Brigades leaders reportedly as a gesture to Abbas. "Speaking during a sit-down exclusive interview for the upcoming book "Schmoozing with Terrorists," Yousuf said his American training sessions were instrumental in killing Jews. We sniped at Israeli settlers and soldiers. We broke into settlements and Israeli army bases and posts. We collected information on the movements of soldiers and settlers. We collected information about the best timing to infiltrate our bombers inside Israel. We used weapons and we produced explosives, and of course the trainings we received from the Americans and the Europeans were a great help to the resistance." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57261 The Arab state of Israel is no safe for Jews. Not as long as the Israeli government is one that does not longer represent the Jews of Israel.
10. avshalom,time for you to change...
trumpeldor ,   eurabia   (08.22.07)
11. To #3
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (08.22.07)
Actually and as flattering as it is to have the blame all to ourselves, the last thing we need is another screwed-up state. We have enough of those, already. Most people over here don't understand that "settlement" controversy and couldn't care less one way or the other. Israel or PA, to some of us the whole place is mostly a bottomless money pit. Of course, you can always tell us to go to hell. Oh, please, please, tell us to go to hell! As for not being the nation you were promised, who did you expect to create that for you? The tooth fairy? Maybe you need to ask that of the politicians whom you elect. But then again, it's so much easier to point at somebody else than to look into the mirror, or as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
12. Where is the "incitement" to commit a crime?
Steve ,   US   (08.22.07)
This author wrote: "in light of the incitement and legitimization of insubordination on the part of West Bank rabbis, which constitutes a crime for all purposes...." etc. Didn't we learn from the Nuremberg trials, following immoral and criminal orders is no excuse for an officer or a soldier? What is more criminal than expelling Jewish families from their houses and from our land? Would this writter suggest insubordination on the part of German officers and soldiers --- that were ordered to deport Jews --- would have been unacceptable? Even criminal as he's done in this column? Why would Iranian President Ahmadinejad or Hizbullah leader Nasrallah send a fat check to West Bank rabbis for protecting our land and our right to live in our land? Ahmadinejad and Nasrallah want to destroy our right to live on our land; they want to annihilate the Jews. Our rabbis (those who gave our soldiers good counsel) are protecting our land and out right to live in our land.
13. Villain quotes a mass murderer
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (08.22.07)
The last line says it all!
14. Thanks But No Thanks!
Ariel ,   London UK   (08.22.07)
The element of "Sacrificing One's life" must not be changed. If the object was to sacrifice just to live, what is the point of the state of Israel and the law of return? Jews could simply do that where ever they are in the world. The state of Israel is sacrosanct for the survival of the Jewish people as a race, and for that reason, one must be prepared to sacrifice one's life to protect it, and herein lies the problem. The state is getting smaller and smaller as a result of political decisions that undermine that very sacrosanct idea. Then you wonder why some soldiers refuse to obey orders?
15. Changing reality- You Godless leftists are history
Jew   (08.22.07)
And Israel WILL ultimately be a Jewish state.
16. Oath should not be made to "Government"- but rather the Jews
Raf ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.22.07)
The oath should indeed be changed to- "I pledge an oath to do all in my power to defend my homeland, my people, and the holy Torah. And to obey my commander as long as it does not go against the morality of my cause." Something along those lines are the only way to bring the army back into the morale-right, and to reinvigorate our troops. It also sounds awesome. And on account that 60+% of Israeli Jews believe that the Torah was given to us at Sinai, it's about time we mentioned G-d's holy Torah!
17. Dearest, misinformed Avshalom of Meretz Land
Abraham ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.22.07)
(1) Losers like the Meretz & Olmert/Barak folks who do NOT serve in the IDF, not to mention combat units need not preach to Kippa Sruga who DO serve in MUCH greater 5ages, how & whom to serve in the Army; (2) These same LOSERS want to remove the idea of Self Sacrific e from the wording of the Pledge - how DISingenious - what you meretz folks need even LESS incentive to serve? (3) Why do you lie, by saying "the first organized attempt in two generations to undermine the very legitimacy of IDF" when you know darn well that the Meretz LOSERS are the ones who had the SAYERET refusing to serve & petitioning the Prime Minister? (4) & Most importantly: Instead of finding out why the IDF is PERCEIVED as being a POLITICAL instead of a fighting body, so that the real issues can be addressed, you choose to SEPERATE the Right from the Left - Knowing full well that the streets in Shankin will not provide you with the motivating forced required for the IDF. To compound this, you do not even THINK of thanking the KIPA SRUGA community for their GREAT DEVOTION and 5ages in Combat Units as you would the Kibbutzim - what's your REAL beef. AVshalom? IS it that you don't mind RELIGIOUS soldiers serving - and RISKING THEIR LIVES _ Not like you meretz people in desk jobs who REALLY need to change the pledge to reflect your LACK of Commitment & ZERO risk in your offices. You are HURT because Commited Soldiers are PISSED at RISKING their lives while the Army is politicizing itself? You should THANK the Rabbis for giving the IDF a chance to correct its ridiculous erroneous direction. Change the pledge if you will, but then be prepared to go begging in Shenkin for a commited soldier - like you once were.
18. IDF refuses to arrest vandals who uprooted Jewish trees.
Canadian Otter   (08.22.07)
"Arabs and their Jewish collaborators uprooted 5,000 young vines in the community of Neria, in the Dolev-Talmonim area of western Samaria Wednesday. Shlomi Cohen, the uprooted vineyard's owner, said that around noon, about 100 people accompanied by TV news crews arrived at the vineyard and began uprooting the vines, which were only planted recently. "They came to the vineyard, uprooted 5,000 vines, burned pipes, drip pipes and saplings, and 15 minutes later everything was black," said Cohen. He added that although he had received a tip about the planned attack and informed the IDF, the army did not make it on time to prevent the vandalism. When the military did show up, Cohen said, it drove away the vandals but did not arrest them. "I have had a vineyard for 12 years in Dolev," Cohen added. "I never reached confrontations, never harmed anyone." His land, he says, has all the required approvals from the Defense Ministry's Settlement Section. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/132065 Now, if this is typical of an IDF response to vandalism against Jews in Israel, there is something very serious at the heart of the institution. Why are Jews who live in Judea and Samaria considered second class citizens not worthy of the protection of the authorities? What are the IDF and the police orders when Jews are the victims of Arab violence or crimes against property?
19. M. Hartley #3
Steve ,   US   (08.22.07)
If I am correct, I believe you are a Christian? I agree with you, Israel's current crop of leaders are a huge disappointment. Even corrupt. On the other hand, the US exerts incredible influence over Israel and her leaders. I am a thirty six year registered (conservative) Republican who, I am sad to say, voted for Mr. Bush in 2000. From a strictly moral and ethical standpoint what Bush is doing in pushing for the expulsion of Jews from the Holy Land and pressuring Israel to establish a Palestinian (no doubt terrorist) state in Israel's heartland runs completely contrary to everything this president has enunciated since September 2001; counter to this worldwide war he claims we are engaged in against the "terrorists and "terrorism;" against the jihadists. You say, most people over here don't understand that "settlement" controversy and couldn't care less one way or the other. This is not doubt true but why is this? Don't American Christians understand the importance of the land of Israel in the prophetic scheme of things described in our Bible? Why are American Christians so callous that as you say, they couldn't care less? We know Israel is on the forefront in the war against Islamic terror. Americans saw what was done to some three thousand innocents on September 11, 2001 by Muslim terrorists. Most Americans saw Palestinian Arabs throughout the "West Bank" and Gaza dancing and celebrating in the streets at our tragedy. Why couldn't Americans, particularly Christians, care less? Perhaps American Christians could listen to Christian pastors like this pastor. Perhaps American Christians could open their Bibles and open their hearts: http://tzemach.org/weblog/?p=84
20. Villian would have us pledge to PA
Ilan ,   Ariel   (08.22.07)
21. The new pledge is good enough unaltered!
Helene ,   Israel   (08.22.07)
It is the ultimate HONOUR to defend ones country - no need to change the wording!
22. #7: Good point
Steve ,   US   (08.22.07)
"Shouldn't the PM and all MKs swear allegiance to ISRAEL?" Excellent! You would not know Israel's Prime Minister, Defense Minister, Foreign Minster, President and some or many of our MKs have much, if any, allegiance to Israel or to the Jews.
23. Do you call for arresting the leftists who refuse
Mordechai   (08.22.07)
Last time I checked most every refuser was a Meretz activist.. It was Meretz, Yesh Gvul and Gush Shalom that demanded Jewish soldiers refuse to serve in the territories. It was the left who demanded soldiers refuse to serve in Lebanon. It is leftist professors who call the IDF a Judeo Nazi army. It is leftist professors who threatened to flunk students who serve reserve duty.
24. should say MK Avshalom Vilan...
(08.22.07)
25. Any government which orders expelling Jews is illegitimate.
Chaim   (08.23.07)
To order the I.D.F. to expel Jews from their homes is a total perversion of the purpose of the I.D.F. The I.D.F. was created to protect Jews. Any government which orders the I.D.F. to expel Jews is illegitimate and has no right to govern. Soldiers who refuse such orders are heroes.
26. Israel and America
Thomas ,   Cleveland, USA   (08.25.07)
As a Jewish American(Yes, in that order, JEWISH then AMERICAN) I have to say that I like the fact that Israel and America consider each other allies. However, I must say that Israel should stop listening to my government. My government doesn't know the full extent of the plight over there and are asking you to do very unrealistic things that would not benefit you at all.
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