Jewish Scene
Lithuanian rabbis slam 'heter mechira' practice
Neta Sela
Published: 26.08.07, 09:37
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61. Shmita year
Meira ,   Israel   (08.27.07)
Lets just think for a minute about the actual situation among the Hebrews in their land before many were exiled to the golah by our enemies. Nobody starved for a year or the people would not have survived. Presumably each cultivated field could have been left fallow for a year in rotation, foods were stored from previous harvests, and in any case food already growing before the start of Rosh Hashana can be eaten
62. Heter mechira
D. Mentch ,   NYC, USA   (08.27.07)
Rabbi Elyashva may be Hareidi, politically, but religiously he is "frum", but not appear to be a true "yiras shsmanyim" someone who fears heaven. Shmittah today is Rabbinic with doubts as to the actual year. Additionally, there is great loss involved. All of which add up to a reason to be lenient, Destroying someone's livelihood violates the Torah itself. This man is willing to be lenient on something which is essential to the Torah while being "machmir" on a not so clear "d'rabanan". It may appear frum,but is it? When it comes time for him to give "din V'cheshbon" (an accounting when tries to arrive in heaven) he had better have deep pockets, because the payout may be steep.
63. To all secular Jews
Merrill ,   New York, NY   (08.27.07)
I will be the first one to admit - I am a secular Jew and I attempt to behave in a Jewish way not because I obey the commendments of G-d but because I am a nationalist and Zionist. The problem with guys like me is that we tend to have sons and daughters who are less passionate about being Jewish as we are no matter how hard we try. Our kids don't tend to have issues marrying non-Jews and/or partially or fully ignoring their Jewish identity. If not for religious Jews (including haredim, hasidim, frumniks, etc.) I am absolutely sure Jews would not have made it to 21 century, proud and strong. So let's be more respectful to their concerns - yes, they may sound as if they are stuck in year 61 B.C., but that's better than hearing our grandkids saying something like "yeah, I think my grandma is Jewish.. or is it grandpa?" P.S. The thought of buying from Arabs does not make me happy!! (although when people have something to loose, they are less likely to blow themselves up, or send their kids to blow up - so it's in our interest to have educated, financially independent Arabic neighbors!)
64. #58
Moshe ,   Israel   (08.27.07)
" What do you propose that religious people , food chains and so on , should do with their chamets ? Throw away ? Is this not sinning to throw away food ? " Well... when the Torah commands you to burn your chometz, I guess it's not a sin, right?
65. Merril NY
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.27.07)
Listen , i also am a secular Jew . I lived abroad , begalut too . But i gave my children a Jewish and Hebrew education . They went to a Jewish school during 15 years , 3 years kijndergarten included . They were not thinking marrying a non Jew , and both made Alyah , as i did . So if you are a nationalist and a zionist , why are you still living in New York ? Come on , be a zionist in deeds , make alyah . Regarding the fact that there are still Jews , it's only partly the merit of the orthodox . It's more because non Jews did not accept us in their societies , in their businness , in their universities . Now that we are more accepted , Jew assimilate more , and seculars will have the difficulties you have .
66. Moshe
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.27.07)
Burning the chamets , private people do it with the latest crumbs . But everything chamets they have at home ? i have never heard of people burning their whole food stock , i have only seen the chamets covered up with paper in my super market . A charidi supermarket takes all the chamets away , but i doubt if they burn it , will ask some day . You can see certificates of sale of the chamets in all the shops . Do you burn all the chamets you have at home ? My mother ZL said always that throwing food away is not permitted , too much people are hungry . In any case , there is a difference between selling your chamets or your land . When selling your land to a non Jew , the main purpose of the shmitta , let your land rest , is not respected , while by selling your chamets , you don't eat it .
67. #66
Moshe ,   Israel   (08.27.07)
"When selling your land to a non Jew , the main purpose of the shmitta , let your land rest , is not respected" That's why most rabbis (not only chareidim as this article portrays) do NOT allow to sell your land to a non-Jew (heter mechirah). "while by selling your chamets , you don't eat it " The mitzvah is to not own it, either by destroying it (as much as you have and want) or selling it. If you sell it, however, that sale is REAL, and if the non-Jew who owns it wants to come and take it, he must be allowed.
68. #62
Moshe ,   Israel   (08.27.07)
"Rabbi Elyashva may be Hareidi, politically, but religiously he is "frum", but not appear to be a true "yiras shsmanyim" someone who fears heaven." Obviously you aren't either, or you would be following halacha by not speaking loshon horah (in Elul no less), certainly about a talmid chacham.
69. Re: Charles
Merrill ,   New York, NY   (08.28.07)
You are absolutely right and I have nothing to say in my defence. Due to my current circumstances (large graduate school debt, wife and newborn baby) it's really tough for me to just pick up and go; however the thought of aliya never leaves my mind.
70. #31" Would you argue with Albert Einstein?
Yaakov ,   Los Angeles   (08.28.07)
You know you're not qualified to argue with Albert Einstein's theories. You know you're not qualified to argue with rocket scientists, etc. etc. Why then do you feel you can argue with the great Rabbis of the generation? You should also know that the contemporaries of Rabbi Elyasheve also say the same.
71. to #70
rabbi JD ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (08.28.07)
Perhaps, I am a rabbi and am qualified to argue or debate those you call great rabbis? What would you say then? BTW if you have concerns why don't you live in Israel instead of LA? Shemitta does not affect you in Galut.
72. #71
Moshe ,   Israel   (08.28.07)
"Perhaps, I am a rabbi and am qualified to argue or debate those you call great rabbis?" Since you're not (great rabbis of their stature don't hang out on Ynet), it's not an issue. You cannot argue with them, since you don't have the qualifications. "BTW if you have concerns why don't you live in Israel instead of LA?" His concern is with Torah. THAT concerns affects every Jew, everywhere.
73.  to # 7 'heter mechira' practice
david r ,   herzlia israel   (08.28.07)
I SUPPORT YOUR GREAT IDEA!!, THE PROBLEM IS THAT IF ALL HAREDIM IN THE SAME PLACE, WHO IS GOIUNG TO PAY FOR THEM TO CONTINUE THEIR LIFESTYLE, NO WORK, NO ARMY,,,,,,
74. To all the talkbackers
james ,   Jerusalem   (08.28.07)
I was always taught not to offer my opinion in matters that i am not learned. You obviously are not learned in the matter of shmitta and dare to poke fun at the sages of this generation. Poking fun at torah sages is a dangerous sport that could effect you either today, in twenty years or your children-whenever G-d decides-but you will get burned when you play with fire!
75. 74 - You sound just like the Islamists
amnon   (08.28.07)
You know, "It is dangerous to question the Imam" or "You do not know the Koran or Hadith well enough to understand" or "You'll bring danger upon your family for saying these things". Osama is probably proud of his like-minded thinkers. Why should people not have the freedom to question hypocrisy when they hear it, but instead are threatened when we refused to subject ourselves to their brainwashing?
76. Merrill in New York - stay put!
Jo Jo ,   UK   (08.28.07)
Hi Merrill - don't feel guilty from Charles is advising you. I call it Zionist coercion - we know what they have done in destroying the souls of the religious Jews they airlifted from Arab lands. They have no shame. G-d does not want non-observant Jews in His land. Better stay in NY and dream of Zion than be in Zion and dream of NY.
77. Jo Jo , stay in your
charles ,   petyach tikva   (08.28.07)
UK , don't come to pollute our air here
78. Re: Jo Jo
Merrill ,   New York   (08.29.07)
I always feel unsure whenever someone tells me "G-d does not want ..." or "G-d wants you to" .. how do the know? In terms of non-observant Jews, if not for them, no Jews would be in His land right now thanks to our friendly neighbors. Non-observant Jews pay (high) taxes, serve in Army and promote Zionism whereas (many) haredim sit all day in yeshivas learning Tora - which is great, except someone has to feed them/defend them. So both sides need each other, and we all need to make sure that Israel remains a Jewish country, first and foremost.
79. Merrill
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.29.07)
I just read your TB again . You have a newborn Baby . Well to minimise the risks of him or her to assimilate , are there not Jewish Schools in your big town ? or are they only strict religious ? I had the same problem , but in my European town there was a not so religious Jewish school . Where i lived almost ALL the Jewish children went to a Jewish school , seculars and atheists also . Even if you are NOT religious , you have to know something about your History , that's what my mother Z.L. always said
80. Shmita is about recognizing that the land belongs 2 God!
(08.29.07)
81. 79 - If you're secular, why give children Jewish education??
(08.29.07)
If God does not exist, what does anyone care if a Jewish child assimilates or not? It's all just forcing on the child a tradition that has no real meaning, other than parental sentimentality. The child should be free to choose and not forced to think a certain way, no matter where they may live.
82. To anonymous # 81
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.29.07)
If you give your children a strictly orthodox education , don't you force them to think a certain way ? Do they see something else ? do they have a choice ? They are even rejected if they leave their father's way of life . Well i gave my children a good base of knowledge of our history . They could make a choice , and they chose the right pad , they live here . Knowledge is'nt a bad thing i suppose . And you can be secular , even opposed to some forms of religious coercision , but be and feel 100 % Jewish . I'll prefer to talk to a person with a name .
83. G-d constantly tells us to "choose life!"
Jo Jo   (08.29.07)
Merrill you are right and wrong. While Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal lauds the efforts of the secular Zionist pioneers in building up the Land, one need look no further than the Bible itself which clearly states that if Jews do not follow His commandments they will be chucked out of the land. It is people like Charles who are putting the Jewish existence in the Holy Land at risk. On who knows what G-d wants – think about it – would He give us the law and expect us not to know what He wants from us. The Torah and its sages are here to guide us in every facet of living on the earth. Of course this has been abused and proven catastrophic many a time throughout history, (remember Pilegesh Begivah), but as long as statements of what “G-d wants…” are espoused by “Daas Torah, they should be accepted and respected. There would also be Jews in His Land if not for the Zionist Invasion – and not only that – they probably would not need to be protected by an army which drains the national buget, but live as a “protected people” as they did under the Ottomans. Many haredim study torah all day, but is it the majority? I do not know. However, as there are more secular in Israel, a larger proportion of secular I am sure are also unemployed. Noone ever mention those “parasites” b/c people only hate the religious – guilt? There are a number of reasons why hardeim can’t find work since many firms only accept positions from people who have done nation service – something which is not possible for that sector.
84. I have got Charles literally fuming
Jo Jo ,   UK   (08.29.07)
You talk of "polluting our air". Well, if I came to live in the Holy Land - may I be worthy of it - I would do more for air pollution than secular "Jews" do. Putting aside the gaseous effect of a good shabbos cholent, all the days on which melachah is forbidden, I will be saving kilogram upon kilogram of CO2 by refraining from driving, etc. You however continue to pollute the air with your car fumes by driving on the holiest of days.
85. Thanks due to Ynet
Jo Jo ,   UK   (08.29.07)
My first ever RED Talk Back!! How exhilarating!! Yasher Koach!
86. No Jo Jo , it's you body and soul that pollutes
charles ,   petrach tikva   (08.29.07)
If you want to eat a good Sholent on Shabbat , not your galut Shabbos , do it . It's the appropiate food in the Israeli weather conditions .
87. Run out of steam, Charles?
Jo Jo ,   UK   (08.29.07)
Stick to your chilled falafel, cold chopped liver and strauss ice cream if that makes you happy - as long as you "feel" Jewish is what seems to matter to you. You think Israeli weather is hot - just you wait till you get to the other side, ouch!
88. JoJo , are you a kitchen aid ?
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.29.07)
that's not on my menu . And i don't need this to be , and feel Jewish . Was it not for fearing your polluting soul and ideas , i would invite you for a meal at my home . It's Kosher , and there is NO contradiction . For me to know why , for you to find out , if your brains [ do you have ? ] can resolve this enigma
89. Jo jo is silenced !
charles ,   petach tikva   (08.30.07)
Can't pollute this site anymore ?
90. Land sale
Yohanon ,   USA   (08.31.07)
While not in complete disagreement with R. Elyashiv, I have to wonder if he approves of other fictions - the eruv, "selling" hamas before Pesach but keeping it in the cupboard, having the "Shabos goy" (noker) light the lamps, wash the dishes, etc., Prosbol. Judaism is replete with such fictions. I think the land needs to rest - it's sound agricultural practice (from the Torah, where else!).
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