Opinion
Conquer or capitulate
Martin Sherman
Published: 15.10.07, 21:04
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40 Talkbacks for this article
1. The Arabs can't destroy Israel but the Jewish liberals can
Roger ,   USA   (10.15.07)
2. The Jews can't grasp that the Arabs don't think like Jews
Harry ,   USA   (10.15.07)
They have a different approach. Unless Israel understand that the Arabs understand force Israel will have a problem. King Hussein understood his brethren over 35 years ago when he severely punished the Palestinian Arab terrorists.
3. Fruit Of The Poison Tree
J. Abramoff ,   zionazistan   (10.15.07)
Every inch of stolen land will haunt every generation till the end of time. Zion is a lose lose proposition.
4. A larger Israel as ameans to peace
Jouko Piho ,   Loviisa Finland   (10.15.07)
A larger Israel as a means to peace I agree totally with Martin Sherman's article "Conquer or capitulate". I am convinced that a two-state solution will not work. Israel is too small and militarily vulnerable. A new Palestinian state on the West Bank could not either be viable and would be a constant threat to Israel. That's why the only solution is a greater Israel so that West Bank and Gaza will be annexed totally into Israel and the Palestinian people would be moved to Jordania. The yielding politics of the Government of Israel will not lead to a permanent peace. Only a stronger and larger Israel could succeed in stabilizing the area. I think this idea is worth trying. I am sorry to say, but arabs and muslims do not appreciate weakness. They appreciate only power.
5. Sounds Better Than Olmert's Idea.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (10.15.07)
6. ITS A MIRACLE, there is still an Israeli that exists that...
j ,   jerusalem, israel   (10.15.07)
....has not caught the plague of dissilusionment that has infected every man woman and child in Israel. Could it be a sane Israeli that is not living in some la la land of peace, flowers, bunny rabbits and hugs with the same Palestinians that want to slaughter us? ....nah, he must be American?
7. Unfortunately Martin, the same newspaper you work for....
j ,   Jerusalem, israel   (10.15.07)
....does not see it your way. They are more dillusional than the government and are the reason this self-delusion dreams of peace still exist so strongly today. ....so much so they will edit out this feedback to silence the voice of reason - suprised they let yours out :)
8. The Rock and the Hard Place
The Other Alan ,   Plainfield, NJ, US   (10.15.07)
Is there really no choice between either the Jews capitulating or the Palestinians capitulating? This would appear to be the only two options for Martin Sherman. Those like Mr. Sherman who worship the Golden Idol of the domination theme would be best to find a new ideology that makes sense. That is, if they really want to enter the modern world and not to retire into and sanctify the netherworld of ethno-religious division.
9. Mr Martin--do you think Moishe Feiglin
Brooke   (10.15.07)
has the capacity to be the kind of leader you describe that must lead Israel to strength and an uncompromising future? Yes, everything you said is absolutely true. Decades of murder from the palis and their child abuse indoctrination to further the hatred for Israel can never be quelled by land for peace deals. Do you think Israel is finally willing to see that the inspiration for the palis is the full conquest of all of Israel and the death of her Jews? I believe not only a full change in the Israeli gov't is required but also in the US. It is time for the world to agree that their terrorists-- that they have the right to kill ---are the same terrorist of Israel---anfd yet the world wants to give them a state!!!. Unbelievable. I hope Israel finally galvanizes and chooses survival and terror -free lives and does not capitulate to universal pressures, which are anti-semetic in nature. I pray everybody finally wakes up and gets "it". Thank you for a brave analysis.
10. Every thing was under control the time of Begin and Shamir
e.m ,   s.f   (10.15.07)
Than it was the Shimon Press who brought the Yaser Arafat with his terrorists groups to W.B and mobilized our enemies in that area. And the worth one was after six days war that the Moshe Dayan the defense Minister of that time has let the Arabs from Jordan returned to Yehuda and Shomron
11. The folly of reconquest
Johann Haefliger ,   Sion / Switzerland   (10.15.07)
Martin Sherman is certainly right when he says that deterrence is sadly ineffectual and therefore no longer an option. However, the reconquest of the areas transferred to Palestinian control and the reinstatement of effective Israeli sovereign rule from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, will make the whole world turn against Israel, even the now overfriendly US. This will destroy the Jewish state even more speedily than the ever increasing, but unavoidable concessions to the Palestinians.
12. Specious Reasoning...
David F ,   London   (10.15.07)
If the Palestinians wont be deterred from their nationalist goals by massive casualties, why would they acquiesce to Israeli rule? Surely, things would be exactly as predicted by Y Leibovitz in 1968 and as came to pass when Israeli occupied the territories. Israeli would have to keep Palestinian aspirations in check with a huge internal security apparatus. This would only be a drag on the state financially, spiritually and morally. Not to mention that the Palestinians would still violently resist Israeli rule - as the author himself argues in the first half of his article...
13. This article is silly...
John S. ,   USA   (10.16.07)
The whole gist of this article is silly because it suggests or implies that there is some pretense to "Palestinian sovereignty" in the areas ostensibly controlled by the PA presently. By any reasonable standard, the prescription here - "speedy and decisive conquest of the areas transferred to Palestinian control, the dismantling of all the political and military organizations and infrastructures established since the Oslo Agreements, and the reinstatement of effective Israeli sovereign rule from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea." - represents the de facto reality on the ground already. Israel is in total control and what little Palestinian entities that do still exist are completely impotent and powerless. The net result of this suggestion - getting rid of the pretense of the PA - will not effect any meaningful change on the ground at all, at least as far as Israeli security is concerned. However, as a one state supporter (and yes, a Jewish one), I personally see no problem with getting rid of the PA pretense. Although such a move will have no meaningful impact for the Israelis - Israel is already in total de facto control - it will have an impact on the Palestinians. Specifically, it will lay to rest the unrealistic nonsense that a two-state solution is a realitic option and will radically increase the growing trend toward one state advocacy. So, although the rationale for this article is silly and will not provide the results suggested; at the same time I support the idea. Yes, let's get rid of the Oslo constructs, it will be better for everyone. John S. / onestate.org
14. NO Time To Waste
Adina Kutnicki ,   US   (10.16.07)
This analysis is outstanding. I must say that I have been advocating the same general idea for quite some time. There is NO other option, but to reconquer, and simultaneously dismantle PA (terror) institutions. It must be noted that the IDF heads trained its forces night and day to dismantle Jewish ! communities, thus rendering tens of thousands homeless to boot. This same resolute IDF must urgently adopt as its mantra the reconquering of its lands. It is NOT Arab land, it is Jewish land. For IF this is not done, then the zionist homeland will surely disappear. The current post zionist leadership will probably not wake up from their comas until Hamas, Fatah, Al-Qadea etc are surrounding the Tel Aviv Coast. Forewarned is forearmed.
15. A Lesson Israelis Can't Seem to Grasp...
Dan Friedman ,   NYC, NY   (10.16.07)
...it's the Land, stupid.
16. martin sherman
mark ,   westfield usa   (10.16.07)
Mr. Sherman, while I agree that there are many Palestinians who will never make peace with Israel, however small she may be, what is the answer? Should Israel remain in the territories forever? Eventually they will demand Israeli citizenship and then what should we do? Israel has 3 options: 1. Leave the territories altogether. Do limited territorial swaps with the PA, further reducing the number of Arab Israelis and enabling Israel to keep most of its "settlements". 2. Kick all non-Jews out of Israel and the territories and then annexing the land. 3. Forcing all non-Jewish Israelis and the Palestinians to have either Palestinian or Jordanian Citizenship, but with no sovereign land other than Jordan. The status quo cannot go on forever. Personally, the biggest issue to Israel's future is not the territories, and the Palestinians. It is the fact that Israel has a growing, hostile Arab Israeli populace, and a Palestinian group that may one day demand Israeli citizenship as well. Abu Abuminah, the head of the electronic Intifada web site, makes this case in his book espousing one bi-national state. That will be the end of a Jewish nation. I know there will never be a true peace. But Israel will be better without this hostile population.
17. Excellent Analysis
Josh ,   USA   (10.16.07)
Dr. Sherman is correct, and so is talkbacker #2. It's unfortunate, but the truth is that Arabs and Muslims do not think like Jews, Christians, and other people who share Judeo-Christian values. It has been proven again and again that no amount of capitulation or friendly diplomatic gestures will make Israel's enemies recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland with secure borders. Israel must retake the West Bank and Gaza Strip, dismantle the Palestinian Authority and the United Nations Relief & Works Agency, and exert diplomatic and political pressure on Arab countries to absorb the Palestinian brethren they claim to care about.
18. No need for Pal state! Won't change things for the better!
(10.16.07)
19. # 8:In the Interests of Intellectual Integrity
Martin Sherman   (10.16.07)
Dear "Other Alan" You ask "Is there really no choice between either the Jews capitulating or the Palestinians capitulating?" And then go on to pronounce: "Those like Mr. Sherman who worship the Golden Idol of the domination theme would be best to find a new ideology that makes sense. That is, if they really want to enter the modern world and not to retire into and sanctify the netherworld of ethno-religious division." Let me refer you to the following quotes from two organizations that represent over 90%(!) of the voters in last the Palestinian election: Israel … will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors… Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims - Hamas Charter – Introduction & Article 28 Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated … Goal: Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence - Fatah Constitution –Articles 12 & 19 Surely intellectual integrity should compel you to the conclusion that the above excerpts are far more indicative of the "worship the Golden Idol of the domination" and the " sanctify[ing of] the netherworld of ethno-religious division" you allegedly identify in my views??? Surely it should compel you to the conclusion that it the Palestinian attitude - rather than my acknowledgement of that attitude - that precludes any solution other than conquest or capitulation??
20. The biggest mistake made was mass evacuation
Levy ,   Israel   (10.16.07)
of the Palestinians by their ultimately treasonous leaders, because they were going to "destroy" the country. I know for a fact that plenty of Palestinians who had a genuine connection to the land would have co-existed here - many who stayed have - and would be thriving relative to their lives under Hamas. Even Hamas can't miss this truism. As we go through a doctor and nurse shortage and have to dredge the FSU for anti-Israel "professionals," just think of all the brainpower rotting in holes of the Arab League's making.
21. read genesis again dude - chapter 17
hate Israel? ,   think it yours?   (10.16.07)
22. Think Pakistan and India
Lloyd M. ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.16.07)
Once the British left India, it was only the Muslims that wanted partition! The Hindus didn't want partition, Ghandi and a great major of Muslims didn't want it! It was done for the sake of Muslim radicals that didn't want to live as a minority in a Hindu state. As a result civil war erupted even though a partition plan was worked out. Millions died all because the precious Muslim radicals wanted to live in a Muslim state! Vast populations moved from one country to another in order to just satisfy one group of people--the Muslims! And of course the bitter irony is that Pakistan was further partitioned as East Pakistan became Bangladesh. Again another fringe group wanted to break away and as a result millions died just to create Bangladesh! India is a democracy has a very prosperous economy whereas Pakistan is under military dictatorship and is a breading ground for Jihadists. Like Bangladesh, Pakistan's economy is in the toilet; you have absolutely no foreign invest and no educated labour force! Most Pakistanis are poor, tribal and send their children to Koran memorization schools. This situation resembles Israel versus the Muslims. And Gaza has already split of from the greater Muslims, resembling Bangladesh. If the remaining Muslims want a sovereign country than they need to move to Jordan (100% Muslim)! It's the Muslims that are calling for partition, so let them leave and make another Pakistan east of the Jordan River!
23. #11 Johann - Don't you read the papers?
Mark ,   Philadelphia   (10.16.07)
You say that reconquest would turn the world against Israel. Hah, Hah! Hah! The whole world is, has been, and forever will be against Israel. They can't help themselves. No matter what Israel does or does not do, they criticize it. So the wisest response will be for Israel to look after its own interests and let the chips fall where they may. If Israel were to be attacked and subjugated by the Arabs, turning it into another Darfur, the international community would be even less effective than they are to protect the Darfurians... get it? Your argument may play on the wimps of Israel, but not on those who have taken the time to do some reflection on the issue. All it takes is some reading of the world press to understand that trying to please the goyim is a lost proposition. They'll never be happy until the Jews are either erradicated from the planet or converted to Christianity or Islam. That's the truth.
24. #19 - Well said Mr Sherman! - And an excellent column.
Howard K ,   NYC   (10.16.07)
25. And for anyone raising the demographic issue
Howard K ,   NYC   (10.16.07)
read Benny Elon's proposal. http://www.therightroadtopeace.com The Palestinians would have Jordanian citizenship. And for those Palestinians in Israel who want to emigrate abroad, there are plans already to finance and help them resettle.
26. Feiglin on another Gaza incursion
Jake T ,   Alaska   (10.16.07)
He calls it the Gaza Yo Yo. IDF goes in, suffers casualties, is told to retreat. Same thing over and over, no results. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7474
27. How to increase support for Israel
Amir ,   Beer Sheva   (10.16.07)
I agree with the author. We must go back and liberate our Land. Then the support of Israel awill increase dramatically. So far, people see that Jews are killed, we lost the War in Lebanon, .. and they turn to support Arabs. People always support te stronger one. If the PA will continue send missiles into Israel from Gaza, the will support Hamas. Russia and Germany support Iran because they think Iran is strong. Nobody will support the loser. The Land of Israel belongs to Jews and not for sale by crooked individuals.
28. great article!
oded   (10.16.07)
but with this """leadership""", whose head is coruupt , inept , and is willing to give up the farm just save his skin, very little is expected.... please watch "farwell israel", and really see the true aim of the arabs/moslems. by any means necessary, they say , to extinguish the jews! the only road mP SHOULD BE THE ROAD BACK TO JORDAN. EGYPT! THAT'S IT
29. conquer or capitulate
ghazi qasem ,   Amman-Jordan   (10.16.07)
One can sense the deplorable spirit of aparthied in this article
30. I agree ...
Alex ,   LA, USA   (10.16.07)
I agree with many posters. Russia supports Iran not because they like Muslims or need oil. russians hate Iran and if Iran wouldn't had oil the Russians would make more money. They support Iran only because Iran looks strong and Iranian leader is supported by many countries, including Venesuela, Cuba, Chaina, and US Democrats. Israel now looks very weak, ready to fold.
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