Rights and obligations
Haim Misgav
Published: 01.11.07, 07:15
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1. so what percentage is needed to prevent expulsion?
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (11.01.07)
how many arabs are needed to do national service in order to prevent the suggested national service? 10,000? 5,000? 1,000? (or like abraham's bargaining with god) 50, 45, 40, 30, 20, 10? if one suggests expulsion, then surely one has in mind what the threshold is for staving it off. i would like a fuller explanation of the proposal because it is incomplete and too vague to discuss further.
2. Never ever deny rights!
josef cohen ,   herzliya   (11.01.07)
However benefits and privileges can of course be tied to participation in National Service. In the US as example soldiers have historicaly been given GI benefits without controversy. For consideration Josef Cohen
3. Agree
Alex   (11.01.07)
4. How dare you . . .
Shalom   (11.01.07)
Hareidim do share the burden . . . . The majority work and pay taxes (check the accurate percentages of the number working), they volunteer in umpteen different life-saving organizations, many do the army, either within religious frameworks or the Civil Guard; and more importantly - their Torah learning is on behalf of all Am Yisrael - not just for themselves. Do you really believe that anyone would choose to live in "poverty" (yes, Govt "handouts" are still poverty level), if they didn't believe that it was for a higher level than warming a bench? My neighbor, who receives 1200 shekels from kollel, still has to pay Bituach Leumi every month. He does not receive "family benefit" because his wife does babysitting in the house - 1800 shekels a month. His child benefit is 803 shekels a month. However, although I could not even pretend to be able to live like them, I have to tell you, they are one of the happiest couples I have met. They are always looking how to help others; they invite guests to share the little they have, and are indeed blessed.
5. they pay the expropriated land
pal ,   ramallah   (11.01.07)
national duty means her to be azionist, but can aman from safforia who lives in nazereath or shfaram restore his land in the demolished town, can the govt excute the resolution of the court for the return of burumK Iqrith villages in high galil, the drusK some bedwins delever this duty< but they did not acheve their rights according to that. preferebly its better to govt not to rase this issu, becaus the arbic ballon is full of burning gaz.
6. how can they respect, support and love you ?
Atilla   (11.01.07)
is this fair ? look at the point ! I am very honest, no joke. I wish every people live under its own flag. I MEAN EVERY. EVERY EACH. Atilla Karagözoğlu
7. Israel ! are you like America ?
Atilla   (11.01.07)
no matter who you are in the states ! you say you are an American ! what is the difference between America and Israel ? would you like to be as America ? will you ever able to be ? I need an education, right here on the jew news sites. enough Tali Farkash jokes. enough, lady hunting jokes. you show me your hearts I show you THE WAY TO HAPPY LIFE ! Thank you Atilla Karagözoğlu PS: If you dont teach me, I can start war to you guys :) I am serious. I always win. remember this. I gave you my two years. now, lets start teach me right here. I will go haaretz today, I will tell them same things. if no responce I got my "B" plan ! go to other Jew news sites. They like me anyway.
8. Paying for past mistakes.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (11.01.07)
When we established the State, we made many mistakes. Because the state was founded by liberal socialists, they believed in many idealistic concepts, the long-term consequences of which are now apparent. Among these mistakes was offering citizenship to Arabs. Our policy at that time should have been their transfer to Jordanian territory. Including them in our "welfare state" compounded this mistake. We repeated the same mistake in 1967 although luckily we did not extend citizenship as well. Today, we see the results of this mistaken idealism. This is not meant as a harsh criticism of our founding fathers - they sincerely believed in an eventual peaceful coexistence. Unfortunately, they were mistaken. The author of this article cannot bring himself to the obvious logical conclusion. This is very understandable given that the vast majority of Jews believe in human rights, liberal values of Western democracy, & fair & just solutions. Certainly, economic incentives (or their elimination) can have some effect. Removing child subsidies, for example, would be an excellent idea. But what penalties can we impose on those that do no national service? Can we deny health care? Can we deny voting rights? Can we deny employment? Can we create a large non-citizen minority? These are all self-defeating propositions. They will make a bad situation worse. There are some worthwhile changes to make - Arabic shoud not be an official language. The Arab school system should be eliminated & replaced with a Hebrew/Israeli curriculum. But we all know that these changes are politically impossible. This is not a question of national service. All the talk of national service or military service is a distraction from the real issue. We don't really want them in the army, it's a security risk to put it mildly. Community national service will accomplish not much - mostly because they won't do it anyway. It's like treating cancer with a band-aid. We cannot escape the fact that this is not like the minority problems in most countries. This is not really about civil rights or discrimination. This is not about integration nor is it about economic opportunity. This is only rhetoric - it's only purpose being to obscure rather than illuminate a problem. And the problem is that coexistence has failed. And that should be the starting point of all debate on the problem.
9. #4 Blatant lies
Aharon   (11.01.07)
Haredim do not share the burden, and your post is full of lies. The vast majority are unemployed, do not recognize the secular state, and do not serve in the military at all during their lives. I don't care how happy the Haredim are - I refuse to feed them with my taxes while education in this country goes down the toilet.
10. Rights and obligations
Ingvar Karlsen ,   Rio, Brazil   (11.01.07)
Seeing from outside it is difficult to believe that the israeli government has this issue as priority. In reality the arab population increase is a threat much more dangerous than nukes from Iran.
11. #8: But without knowing the mistakes..
abdullah ,   ashkenaz   (11.01.07)
how can any 'solutions' be found. The biggest mistake of the 'founding fathers' of the jewish state was ignoring jewish religious thought and the central importance of halachic judaism to jewish 'peoplehood'. Other mistakes followed from the first such as underestimating the importance of good relations with the palistinian people, in particular, and areas and muslims, in general. The old (traditionally religious jewish) 'yishuv' (which predated sionuth) by their own accounts coexisted well with the palistinians. So the problem is neither jewish, palisitinian or muslim, but that some new immigrants tothe holy land thought it would be possible to pursue their own rights of self-determination at the expense of the palistinians whose ancestors had lived in the holy land and in the neighbourhood for generations. And that an 'iron wall' (use of overwhelming force), as proposed by vladimir yabot*nsky, would achieve this. (This is by no means liberal left wing as you put it.) The secular left in recnet years has been trying to correct this, by trying to show that secular jewish self determination is not at odds with palistinina self-determination and the two can indeed coexist. Traditional religious jews can coexist with palistinians and secular jews, as with anyonelse really. Such coexistence is built into the jewish religion. The problem today is really the secular right. Even that they have no raison d'etre in the holy land, they're spoiling it for everyone. But not for long..
12. Citizenship
Invicta ,   Europa   (11.01.07)
'Yet we can certainly create a mechanism that would deprive citizenship or other rights . . . . ' Wow-sounds like a re-reading of mein kampf. 'where the prophets of Israel preached thousands of years ago in favor of the principles of justice, morality, and equality while most other nations were still climbing on trees' Do you mean the Romans? Or do you mean black people?
13. #8
Richard ,   London UK   (11.01.07)
You wrote regarding the Arab population: 'It's like treating cancer with a band-aid.' That is exactly how you see isreali Arabs - as a cancer. Here's another: 'The Arab school system should be eliminated . . . . . ' 'Removing child subsidies, for example, would be an excellent idea. ' Nice. Even better: 'Our policy at that time should have been their transfer to Jordanian territory' your choice of words, 'cancer', 'eliminate', 'transfer' are reminiscent of 'Der Sturmer', a pleasent paper from yesteryear. 'The author of this article cannot bring himself to the obvious logical conclusion. ' What is the obvious logical conclusion? Do tell.
andrew ,   miami,fl   (11.01.07)
15. As an Israeli-Arab, I support National/Military service
Rami ,   Nazareth, Israel   (11.01.07)
In a true democracy, equality is guaranteed to all regardless of military/national service. Take USA for example, Jews who do not serve in the military still get same rights like the ones who do). It is true Israeli-Arabs have full political freedom in Israel, but by no mean, they do not have economic freedom. I’m for military/national service, but please consider the following facts to understand why many Israeli-Arabs are not convinced that serving will bring them equality: 1- Israeli-Arabs who serve in the IDF are still treated as second class citizens (Druze and Bedouin for example) 2- Jews who do not serve, whether for religious reasons or migrated to Israel at an age that do not require them to serve, are still given equal right. To restore the trust of Israeli-Arabs in the state, the government needs to admit the discrimination and declare in a clear voice that once Israeli-Arab serve, they will be granted equal right and anti-discrimination laws will be passed to protect their right.
16. to # 14: YOU SERVE OR LEAVE
Seth ,   Oklahoma   (11.01.07)
considering the fact that american jews are 5th column, desloyal to the USA , keep betraying it and spying for Israel. How would u feel if you were asked to prove your loyalty by SERVING OR LEAVING!!!
17. #9 Please do not call me a liar!
Shalom   (11.01.07)
Every word was 100% truth, and don't talk about your secular educational system. It has failed time and time again.
18. Terry # 8 got it all wrong..
Rami ,   Nazareth, Israel   (11.01.07)
It's true that mistakes where made in the past. While you are suggesting that the mistakes were that Jews, during war of independence, should have acted more in a nazi-fascist way, I 'm here to tell you that Israel’s biggest mistake is that it marginalized and systematically discriminated against non-Jews since day one (since the country was established in 1948). Radicalization in the Israeli-Arab street is a relatively new phenomena, it started only 10-15 years ago. Only after more that 40 years of institutionalized discrimination. During all those 40 years Israeli-Arabs voted to Zionist parties, a higher % than now served in the IDF, always aspired for equality and to be part of the Jewish state (we have no desire whatsoever to be part of any other country). Only when racism persisted (more than 40 years) did radicalism surfaced. On a positive note, all this can be corrected if there is a change in policy. This is the only was to make Israel stronger and more prosperous. Peace
19. Atilla #6, blatant hypocrite
Noam ,   Boca Raton, FL   (11.01.07)
Atilla, you always post poetic statements about brother love and coexistence and how Israel rejects all peace. And you say " wish every people live under its own flag. " As a proud Turkish nationalist, are you ready to let 20% of your country's population receive independence, whose mother tongue is not Turkish, who do not identifty with Kemal Attaturks Turkificiation policies of all Anatolia, and who wish to form their own independent nation according to the international-upheld principles of self-determination. Are the Kurds non deserving of rights because they aren't the sacred Palestinians, whose life under occupation trumps all other occupied peoples? And how about the Armenians, are you prepared to cede Van and Batman and most of Northeastern Turkey to the ancestral homeland of the people your predecessor regime massacred by the hundreds of thousands and forcibly deported. ? Israel is by no means totally just with its non-Jewish citizens but it does not force Israeli Arabs to abandon the use of Arab language in public society (they just need to learn Hebrew alongside it) and does not ban expressions of their ethnic identitiy. The writer may be extreme in his position but its not entirely logical to ask people who don't perform national service to do something for the country in which they reside and hold citizenship (ultra Orthodox included too) Turkey, which I lived in for four months last year, denies Kurds the right to be a recognized distinct community and pressures them to assimilate as "mountain Turks". Turkey isn't prepared to cede any land to Kurds and only increased their cultural rights so they can have abetter chance of EU admission in the future. Can you comment on Layla Zana?
20. I'm surprised about #8
woww ,   LA   (11.01.07)
Terry, this is the first time your post is purely stupid. Not only that but also racist and backward. Was it really written by you? Rami does have a point, I argue that it's all Israels fault, rather blame tthe elected arab officials in Israel (Tibi and like) whom are really mostly hatemongers that take advantage of the system and above all their own people. But it does not mean that you can judge everybody the same. Coexistence is the only way. By the same token Gaza should have never been evacuated, the PA must have made obligated to provide security (if they are so opposed to racism). Stop treating arab leaders like ignorant spoiled 2 year olds, then they will stop acting like one.
21. Jewish colonists have no rights to Palestine
Rob ,   Portland, USA   (11.02.07)
The author also skirts past the fact that the Jewish colonists decided not to induct Palestinians into the IDF. If they are inducted, they will serve. But the colonists don't want the natives to carry guns -- they might resist the Jews' oppression. Palestinians should serve in the IDF until it is time to make it the PDF. Deluded Jews should leave Palestine, and return to their homelands, or accept the rule of the natives, who are a majority.
22. rob, portland
tsedek ,   israel   (11.02.07)
it's better you stay where you are in the usa and keep on dreaming: you are unwanted here, stay out.
23. Reply to #13, #18, & #20.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (11.02.07)
First, would anyone say that coexistence has worked? My opinion is that it has not worked. I have an open mind - demonstrate to me how well coexistence has worked. It didn't work in Ottoman times, it did not work during the British mandate, & it has certainly not worked since 1948. #13 my friend Richard in London should learn how to read. Taking parts of sentences out of context to illustrate my evil nature is not an intelligent way to make a case. #18 my marginalized friend in Nazareth makes a far better argument. But Rami, can you honestly say that the circumstances are one-sided? Stop playing the innocent victim & look at the behavior of your own community as well. While we are not angels, Israeli Arabs are hardly without fault. Many elements of Israeli society have made continuous efforts to promote coexistence - with little or no reciprocity. As a Christian Arab, don't you think your interests are better protected in a Jewish state? You can't not realize that your brother Arab Muslims are putting an end to Christian communities all over the Middle-East. By the way, and somewhat off the subject, why do you think you're an Arab? Because you speak Arabic? So do I - but I would never think of myself as anything but a Jew. Did your ancestors come from Arabia? If so, they would be Muslims. I'm just curious as to your thoughts on the matter. #20 Woww in LA thinks coexistence is the only way. I can only say, "it takes two to tango" & you cannot coexist if the feeling is not reciprocal. While we may be able to coexist with them, they do not think they can coexist with us. I can't blame you for wanting to believe that coexistence is a wonderful idea - I'm not that thrilled at where evidence & logic lead me either. You think it's all the fault of Arab leaders & indeed, Arab leaders have always lead their people to disaster. But you can't lead people where they don't want to go. They reflect the beliefs of a substantial portion of their constituants.
24. Obligations under the law? Justice? Constitution?
David ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (11.02.07)
That the state hasn't created a law obligating arabs to national service is purely irrelevant. Why? Because, they ARE a fifth column. And as for justice? How many arabs were thrown out of their homes by the Yasamnikim and army? And don't birng up your lies about how they were forced out in 1948. They left on their own, being told by their leaders that they would later return after all the Jews were killed. Constitution? This is not the USA, there is NO American Constitution in effect? Why not quote laws instituted by Mao and Stalin too, while were at it. The truth, my soon to be Moslem Richard in London, is that Israel is a Jewish state, the only Jewish state. That, in spite of your wonderful country's lack of help, knowingly, during the Holocaust. What were there words? For the greater good, for the greater good you would see us completely destroyed as a people. You are right, there is no justice. But, only because arabs can build where they want, when they want. If we, hazbehalilah, were to even put up a small storage container on our own property, the police come and tear it down fortwith. Meanwhile, sweet Pali friends in Silwan, Beit Safafa, Beit Hanun, Beit Jala and on to Ramala, Jenin adnozium, build 2-3 story mansions with no permit, on land that never belonged to them. Rights? We Jews have not rights in our, supposed, own state.
25. to terry
taha ,   jerusalem   (11.02.07)
you are a talkative one more than the one want to tell his openion ,,, i think talkatives vanish the real thoughts in the hearts ,,he needs to believe himselfe first
26. Terry...
woww ,   LA   (11.02.07)
I do understand your position, (way to many people died in this "peace" experience) but still say you are wrong on the long run. I think the biggest problem is the arab side was never held accountable for anything. Of course they could be lead in hating us, it's ALWAYS easier and humans tend to choose the easy way. However slowly the arab world is changing, exactly because it did not work. All the drumm beating, hate propaganda, and attacks only hurt arab societies. Very few of them willing to acknowledge this in public but, (it's completly against arabic culture) privately they know. If you were following the debates going on nowadays you would be surprised. It seems to be good to be treated favorably and be excused for all mistakes as most arabic countries were/are. But in fact it does more damage. Ironicaly there is an arabic proverb "Under the weight grows the palm tree" . All that international "help" the palestinians received whatever was not stolen, prevented them from having have to built a working economy, same for most others the oil wealth turns out to be more of a curse then a blessing. On the other hand, jews and Israel are the proof how living among hard conditions and to be able to rely on oneself inspires exelence and triump. Back to the topic of coexistence, no it's not easy. I have no illusions, but saying thet the arabs (lumping 200 million people together is a nonsense by itself) but even only palestinians are all the same an incapable to behave according to modern human standards and live in peace is stupid. And you know it as well as I do.
27. terrys position..... is a far stronger arguement
jack bauer   (11.03.07)
and I have yet to hear a good rebuttal to any of it woww in La tried, but failed miserably.... like the bit ->quote "Very few of them willing to acknowledge this in public but, (it's completly against arabic culture) privately they know. If you were following the debates going on nowadays you would be surprised." <-endquote Maybe you could clear things up for me and maybe point out where I can find these so called debates? I take it you did mean debate between moslems themselves, right? Because the only ones I ever sat in on the debate was about how to destroy the west and the jews best....i.e. are the temporary ceasefire allowed? Can we allow their existance without them being dihimis? etc.... The leftnik loosers in Israel can spout nonsense everyday about giving land away for nothing in return but more violence.....If moslems suggest they give away land to their enemies(jews),they end up dead!
28. Wrong diagnostic
Frank ,   Canada   (11.03.07)
Arabs are leaning towards the Pals because they think Israel is a weak country because of the Israeli Left and because they are buying Arab victimist subversion. Israeli Arabs must make a decision, leaving or living peacefully in Israel. Israeli Arabs are the last card of the Pals, they lost everything with the intifada and they are still losing. Israeli Arabs will lose everything with the Pals if they follow them in their self destruction process.
29. To Terry.............
Rami ,   Nazareth, Israel   (11.03.07)
You touch upon many topics, some are irrelivant. I'm here to tell you that co-existance does work, look at all the mixed cities in Israel like Haifa, Ramle, Jaffa.. etc... Jews and arabs live in harmony and peace. It is the state who choose to built exclusive communities for jews and exclude IsraeliArabs, this has been going on since 1948. Jews are welcomed to come live in Nazareth and you know that. When radical jews attacked our church in Nazareth, we forgave them. As far as christians livin under muslim control!! It's true they do not have as much freedom and in many cases are not treated properly, I never said otherwise. Still that does not justify Israel's discriminating against us as well!!! (even when we do serve in the IDF) So i do not see your point in bringing up this topic. As far as Israel-arabs making mistaks, I agree and they still do. We have our own radical and also our own moderates, you only chose to see the radicals and stereotype the whole community. As you well know, beside voting for the retarded/backward arab parties, Israeli-Arabs also vote for zionist parties like labor, merets, likud, mafdal, kadima, etc... and see these parties as representing them, but again you choose to ignore all that. As for your last question, I'm a proud christian 1st, then Israeli and only then an arab. We did not come from Arabia, we are decendents of the indiginous people who lived this land be them, Cananite, Pheonesians or Israelite... Buttom line, i saying I can co-exist with you in the jewish state, you are the one refusing.
30. good answer rami
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (11.03.07)
and i would like to also point out that arabs who speak out against the illss of the arab community and/or speak up in favor of israel stand a lot to lose from arabs in their own communities and families (even more so in the territories). in arab society, this is a huge price to pay on many levels, especially coupled with the fact that there is so little jewish support for these arabs, considering the many ultimatums and/or outright rejection in talkbacks of this subject. nothing justifies racism. but just as more arabs need to step up to the plate and prove some things to jews, jews need to step up and reward arabs who take such a risk, as well as encourage many others who are simply afraid to make such a bold move. bottom line is that both need to do what is right, not waiting for the other to move first.
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