Opinion  Others
Barak’s destructive role
Guy Ziv
Published: 27.11.07, 09:38
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35 Talkbacks for this article
1. Mr. Ziv, have you learned nothing since 1993????
Aaron ,   Ra'anana   (11.27.07)
Peace is not achieved by endless concessions without any reciprocity or obligations to make peace from the other side. Since 1993 the Israeli "peace camp" has believed that the obstacle to peace is the fact that Israel didn't give enough concessions and didn't give them fast enough. Well now Gaza is completely free of Israelis and free of jews, under its own democratically elected and undemocratically installed government ruling an unfree people on its own land. Where is the peace? Is the peace in Gaza where there is not one inch under israeli occupation??? Hardly, instead there is an endless flow of rocket fire aimed at civilians on the other side of the border. And the reason there is rocket fire is because the palestinians can't manage to successfully cross the border with personel to murder civilian targets in Israel. No, the PEACE is in the west bank, where the palestinians have all but abdicated any sort of security or police role, and the IDF keeps the peace and protects the Israeli civilian population from incessant terror attacks. Would you have Olmert and Barak turn the West Bank into Gaza ??? Is that your solution for Peace ???
2. rich coming from a shrew that pulled out of lebanon, ....
jack bauer   (11.27.07)
uprooted jewish families misnamed as "settlers" (YOU CANNOT BE A SETTLER IN YOUR HOMELAND) made deals with plo terrorists, bowed to the americans and their pressure/promises Was a failure as defense minister....and never admitted a single mistake he ever made
3. You would of seen Baraks Motives at the Rabin Tekes
sabbageorge ,   Tel Aviv   (11.27.07)
You would of seen Baraks Motives at the Rabin Tekes!!! BArak is still a man of peace even though he has his ways about it! Barak has an emaculate security background and at the moment is the RIGHT MAN for the job!!!!! He is put in a difficult possition now in the government where he joins the coalition in order to keep the labor party alive. At the Rabin tekes you clearly saw Baraks vision and motives!!!
4. Perhaps Barak learned something from Camp David?
redmiike ,   tel aviv and london   (11.27.07)
Barak didn't have to do anything to cause a failure of the talks and I purposely didn't say 'peace talks'. If Barak (I'm not a fan) supported Annapolis the author of this drivel would be accusing him of having learned nothing from Camp David. Olmert is fortunately hog tied and can't agree to anything on the agenda and Abbas can't agree to anything because he's not in charge of anything. The whole article is simply waffle and neither adds or subtracts to or from anything. Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad are Muslims and can only offer a hudna and not peace.
Gideon   (11.27.07)
6. what?
Robert ,   NY   (11.27.07)
Why are most so called middle east experts all leftist nut cases? Stick to Maryland Ziv. It was Barak's falt that Arafat didn't want a Palestinian state? He threw in everything, and the kitchen sink in order to please Arafat. Barak was the ultimate leftist If you just wanted Israel to surrender, and give up everything just say it. Forget about Lebanon and Gaza, right?
7. The reports I have read like from Aaron Klein say Barak is
Rivkah   (11.27.07)
only there for show, to give Olmert credibility. But Barak will have a minimal role other than being flashed around.
8. #1-7
Jacob ,   Ashkelon   (11.27.07)
with talkbacks like these, it's no surprise that israel has no peace. ziv is the only one making sense on this page. if israel doesn't negotiate, it will have to keep shooting. that may seem fine right now because things are fairly quiet, but it won't stay that way forever. hamas is upgrading its rockets. they syrians are trying to build nukes. and demographics inside israel are becoming increasingly problematic. do you people want israel to have to live in fear forever or do you want it to be at peace with its neighbors? if giving up some radical SETTLEMENTS in the west bank (yes, they are settlements, by any legal standards), then it's time to do it. by the way, if you don't want to give them up, you can add 3.5 million palestinian citizens to israel's roll book. you know what that means? bye-bye israel. i'm beginning to think that you peace rejectionists are truly the ones who hate israel, because you would see it destroyed rather than budge one inch. sound familiar? that's because it happened before under the romans. too bad you people haven't learned anything.
9. Mr.Ziv is right
Liz Schraybitz ,   New York   (11.27.07)
Barak is a disaster. His arrogance sunk the Camp David summit of 2000. He chickened out of a deal with Syria at the last second humiliating President Clinton. In my opinion, he was Israel's worst PM. Labor voters showed they are idiots for choosing him over Ayalon. If he runs against Bibi, this dove will vote for Bibi. At least, he pays attention to things that are happening outside his own head. Barak is politically autistic.
10. Mr Ziv - at least stick to the trurth stop blaming the Jew
Norman   (11.27.07)
It wasent only Barak who was the cause of failure it was Arafat who rejected everything that was offered. May be Barak realised the true face of the enemy and is very reluctant to give the enemy because he realised that this spells desaster for Israel. Barak mistake was negotiating about giving away land of Israel.
11. Ziv is absolutely correct...
Linda Cohen ,   Los Angeles   (11.27.07)
Predictably, the right-wingers don't like what Ziv has to say, but having been involved in Israeli politics for a long time ("behind the scenes"), I'd have to agree with Ziv's conclusions regarding Barak's motives for playing the role of an obstructionist. The Labor Party is a party with a great history and intelligent people, but it will lose big-time in the next elections if Barak continues in his present path.
12. kudos to Ziv
David Klein ,   Washington, D.C.   (11.27.07)
This is one of the more interesting and original pieces I've read in recent weeks re domestic Israeli politics and its impact on the prospects for peace. Very well done.
13. 8 there will be MORE shooting if concessions are made by
Rivkah   (11.27.07)
Israel. Read Joel's and Zephaniah's and Zechariah's writings in the Authorized King James Bible and you will learn that two-thirds of the people in Israel will perish because of concessions like dividing Jerusalem. Perhaps you have forgotten why the 1967 and 1973 wars were fought. Israel was being attacked and it was far worse than now. The borders of Israel should be internationally recognized as the 1967 borders, not the 1948 borders which put Israel at too much risk for attacks which resulted in wars. The Moslems within the 1967 borders must be sent to other Moslem countries far away from Israel. Joel the Prophet says the consequence of dividing God's land which is Israel will be all the nations of the earth will gather against Israel and the end of Gentile world rule will come. The good news about that is the coming of the Messiah (deliverer) who is Michael the Archangel who spoke to Daniel who is the guardian of Israel who is also known as Yeshua and many other names as well. He is a FRIEND to the Jews and forgave them for his death which was necessary for the Gentiles to be grafted onto the Jewish faith. The Jews have a covenant with Jehovah, the father who is the Almighty God. The Gentiles have a covenant with Yeshua, also called Jesus of Nazareth.
14. wrong
yosef ,   israel   (11.27.07)
There are rumors that in order to get a job, a Jew must betray his nation, even when it involves lying. Guy Ziv writes "Few have forgotten how Barak’s mismanagement of the Camp David negotiations...resulted in the fall of his short-lived government, the collapse of the peace process, and the onset of a second Palestinian Intifada that cost thousands of lives" Neither extreme Left guru Shlomo Ben Ami not Bill Clinton subscribe to this hallucinated theory. Both BenAmi and Clinton describe Barak begging Arafat for the slightest concession and Arafat refused even recognition that the Jews had the slightest relation to Jerusalem. The war that cost thousands of lives was initiated by Arafat, and even the Arabs admit it. With his abilities, Guy Ziv should apply for a job cleaning chewing gum off the streets.
15. Another student talks
Itzik ,   Haifa   (11.27.07)
Madam Schraybitz, you will vote for nobody since you don't live in Israel. As to Barak, he is doing what is good for Barak. Any deal Olmert will get in US will bring war and more war. But then Olmert is already packed and redy to join you, Madam Schraybitz.
16. More evidence of the decline in Israeli "clear thinking"
Raymond from DC ,   Washington, DC USA   (11.27.07)
When I was first in Israel in the 1970's, many (not all) of its leaders and intellectuals had the kind of clear thinking that comes from studying both history and the reality of the day. Sadly, this has been replaced by a politicized historiography. Barak went to Camp David without adequate preparation and without political backing. He threw a kitchen sink of concessions, for which he had no popular support, on the table which Arafat (thankfully) refused. Yet those proposed concessions remain today's "givens", but which should have been disavowed long ago. Barak is at Annapolis to provide Olmert "cover" when this thing blows up in his face. Ziv believes that a deal can be had if only Israel gives up enough. Barak's newfound skepticism is acting as a check, preventing Olmert from making more dangerous concessions, but that conflict's with Ziv's worldview.
17. Good Analysis
David in California ,   Long Beach, CA - USA   (11.27.07)
Mr. Ziv correctly points out that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad are indeed true partners for peace, much preferred to Yasser Arafat, with whom Ehud Barak had to deal with when he was PM. If Barak has his eye on a possible return to the PM's office one day, he should be helping the negotiation process rather than be an obstructionist. The author points out in this opinion piece a very important domestic issue that has been overlooked by most other observers or what is happening today in Annapolis.
18. Barak
David   (11.27.07)
You say that Barak's political calculations are off. Maybe, just maybe, Barak is now the wiser, and he has spurned political calculations in favor of security considerations. It's a very strange situation, when you come to think about it. Five years ago, I thought Mr. Olmert would make a fine prime minister and that Barak wouldn't pass muster as a director of a municipal sanitation department. Now, he's one of the few voices of sanity and intelligence in the entire Israeli government. Indeed, he doesn't merely sound like the "leader of the opposition"- he is the only strong opposing voice to be heard.
19. Ziv
Michael ,   Miami   (11.27.07)
Ziv is just another Israeli leftist who is gaining his anti-Israeli credentials in the Israel bashing halls of academia. Mr. Ziv can't you wait at least until you have your worthless degree to start your attempts at destroying Israel, like all of your academic, elitist ilk?
20. a response to Mr. Ziv's critics
Dov Waxman ,   Jerusalem   (11.27.07)
It is interesting that almost every posting critical of Mr. Ziv's piece is riddled with factual as well as spelling and grammatical mistakes. If you guys were truly literate, you'd realize that the author is supporting Prime Minister Olmert's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians -- not some Meretz or Arab plan. Think before you post your rantings, people! Your postings only reflect the intellectual emptiness of right-wing Israelis and "ra ra Israel" diaspora Jews who can't appreciate thoughtful (and moderate) pieces like this one.
21. Guy Ziv is exactly right
SG ,   Tel Aviv   (11.27.07)
If Barak doesn't get behind Olmert on the peace issue, Bibi will make a comeback, and that is a very scary notion. Barak has no chance whatsoever of becoming PM. It's either Olmert or Bibi, and nobody is more dangerous than Bibi.
22. # 20 a very dumb and arrogant post! Academic support!
redmiike ,   tel aviv and london   (11.27.07)
Firstly there is no connection between intelligence and spelling or grammatical ability. Many of the posts are from people who are using a second language. Did you notice that? And more importantly, "Prime Minister Olmert's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians " Seems like you can't read news items or haven't done your homework?! Or maybe you're simply studying theoretical treatises of one kind or another? 97% of people in Israel want to get rid or Olmert and don't agree with his policies! You sound like another academic who is more interested in correcting people's punctuation than learning about what is happening on the ground. Those who can do and those who can't teach and you are seemingly a perfect example. Mike
23. Barak the genius
alun ,   london uk   (11.27.07)
Barak is a genius because he knows that the peace process is the cause of the death and destruction .Every time Israel tried to make peace it backfired and led to death,destruction and extremism for example Oslo, the withdrawal from Lebanon and the Gaza withdrawal and the "peace" with Egypt led to the supply of arms through Egypt to Gaza and the West Bank .Thus logically stopping the peace process and settling the West Bank will lead to peace and security
24. #20 - is this you?
redmiike ,   tel aviv and london   (11.27.07)
http://dovwaxman.notlong.com thanks - michael sorry I should have written Michael
25. #17 - you have probably now seen that nothing happened in
redmiike ,   tel aviv and london   (11.27.07)
Annapolis, and Abbas and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad are not really to be preferred to any other Muslims as they have the same goal and only differ in their preferred ways of achieving it. This is a good explanation of what I am saying.. http://hudna.notlong.com Mike
26. #8 - yes, let's negotiate with Hamas right now!
redmiike ,   tel aviv   (11.27.07)
Given where you live I can understand your concerns, but Abbas isn't in any position to negotiate anything because he's not in charge of anything. Given your present state of mind you should probably either move to another part of Israel or even go to New Zealand - Mike
27. Barak the Spoiler
Gene ,   New Haven, US   (11.27.07)
I agree with Guy Ziv. It's as if Barak has gone to the opposite extreme after the failure of his own peace effort. He isn't demonstrating a subtlety of thought that inspires confidence in his capacity to lead the country, should he get a second chance. And if he is only pandering to a presumed electoral margin, intending to tack back left if reelected, it undermines confidence in his integrity. If the former, Netanyahu has greater appeal. If the latter, Tzippi Livni. Meanwhile, he erodes peace prospects from the inside and betrays the Labor party he is supposed to be advancing.
28. excellent piece, Mr. Ziv
Ami ,   Jerusalem   (11.27.07)
Mr. Ziv has written an incisive, compelling piece. As a center-left activist, I can tell you that he reflects what many of us have been feeling for a very long time. As to the talkbacks of "redmike," all I can say is that this is a typical tactic of the Right: bash those with a higher education (postings #22 & 24), make a blanket statement about all Muslims, as if they are one monolithic voice (posting #25), and propose to those who don't toe their line that they move to another country (posting #26). I'd amend what Dov Waxman (posting #20) writes: the point isn't that the right-wingers posting these "talkbacks" are inarticulate writers; it's that they are incoherent thinkers.
29. Ziv Column
Eli Kamerow ,   DC, USA   (11.28.07)
The most interesting thing about Ziv, is that while I don't agree with his column, he presents his arguement so well that I have to consider what he says more than I usually would.
30. Re: 20
David   (11.28.07)
Living in Israel, you somehow got the impression that the diaspora, and, I suppose, the United States in particular, is full of "ra ra Israel" Jews. You are unfortunately mistaken.
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