How do you know when someone made a good point? When those who oppose him jump up and attack him rather then his argument. Things are pretty rosy here in NY, though, thank you. Its a pleasure to live in a democracy that respects peoples belief and the right to property. Evictions would never be possible here because they go against the basic rights of the citizen of a democracy. Israel, on the other hand, loves to pretend its a democracy, but as every day goes by it becomes more like a totalitarian regime. But Shuki, if your views are in opposition to mine, please teach me something. If you're intelligent, I'd love to be able to learn something from you.

As far as the erev rav are concerned ...get out before it gets too hot. You have casued incredible damage to the Jews both in Israel and abroad. Jews are viewed as losers and schnorrers ready for the picking. In 1967 the Israeli Jews showed themselves to have balls and were perceived to be tough and as a result the entire world noticed them as winners. Today you are looked upon as poor pathetic schnorrers with shit for brains and a poor poor attitude towards your own safety and wellbeing. In effect you have become losers. Israel has lost its magic and as far as nost Jews are concerned, Isael is not on their radar screen. Its time to get it together. toughen up and get ready to rumble. The Iranians have you in their sights and they mean what they say. They are the new Nazis. They mean business and they are working to destroy you. Thier kids are studying math science and physics while Jewish kids wannabee lawyers and other such useless dreikops...Think about it!

As I do not live in Israel nor do I vote in the Israeli elections and therefore have no voice in the political aspects of Israel-nonetheless I must voice what I feel like. I see Israel being torn apart from within and by an uncaring outside world coddling Israeli outside enemies and falling for their continual lies, for reasons that defy reasoning but I am powerless to change anything at all I am like a passenger on an airplane that places his life and wellbeing into the hands of a pilot, whether he is capable or not or if he is he’s drunk or sober I am still totally bound without any recourse to any or have any capabilities or control for actions taken by him Israel whether it likes it or not cannot ignore the worlds Jewish opinion and claim “It is Sovereign” and has the moral authority to act in any manner it wants without taking into consideration outside Jewish opinion. Israel cannot rely on the goodwill of uncaring self serving nations as the moment their interests are in conflict with Israel they will ignore Israel or any promises made to them. On the other hand Jews are and always will stand by the side of Israel but such will not be available if Israel divorces and disenfranchises world Jewry from voicing their opinion.

Well my rabbi urged me not to defend jews in religious settelment as they arn't good jews. If one group can refuse orders on ine ground another can do the same even if the opisset. Then were back in the year 70 with the defeat of our country!! wake up and stop the infighting the enemy is next dorr not at home

Any democracy must protect itself against those who actively work to undermine the foundations of a free and an open society. A democratic Jewish state should also protect its national character while at the same time being a state for all its citizens. In israel today both portions of the settler right and nationalist elements in the Arab community must be held accountable for crossing lines beyond the boundaries of protected speech and political advocacy. This is not a wholesale attack on the majority in either the national religious camp or the arab community but those of growing numbers who believe that they have a free hand to undermine the zionist dream. They must be smartly and strategically confronted in a legally sane manner.

face. In the US Army, refusing to obey a lawful order can result in a court martial and a dishonorable discharge which affects employment opportunities for the rest of the person' life because a coded designator is attached to the Social Security number that prospective employers see. The Bible indicates that many Jews will still be living on the West Bank when the little horn of Daniel (antiChrist) is revealed when he goes into the Third Temple to say he is God when he is not. Those Jews will be slaughtered immediately after that unless they flee to the mountains and Petra. Jews have given up Gaza and will be driven from Ashkelon and Ashdod and Ekron. This will come to pass, but the good news is the the Jewish Messiah (deliverer) comes shortly after that to end Gentile world rule and establish an everlasting kingdom with a Jewish king of kings.

Should reflect back on the Gaza disengagement & the images we all saw on TV. Then think how successful the disengagement has been. Daily Kassam fire on Sderot, morter fire, the building of an Iranian-sponsored terror state, our refugees from Gaza basically abandonned. Now multiply that by at least 10 times since disengagement from the West Bank will create at least 100,000 Jewish refugees. What will you say when morter-fire, snipers, & Kassams hit Jerusalem? What will you say when Ben-Gurion is closed due to rocket fire? What will you say when suicide bombers blow up daily in Tel Aviv? Tell me what you'll say about 100,000 Jews with no home? When perhaps you too will be without a job when our economy is wrecked? Our gov't. has no mandate to make these concessions. This "deal" is being shoved down our throats, like Oslo before it. If we have elections & Olmert wins, then I will shut my mouth & accept whatever deal is made. In that case, the rabbi will be wrong since we must obey the majority. But without elections, the rabbi is correct.

An Independent Judean State, with Jewish rule, !!!

Want to see Israel end again? Keep up this nonsense about refusing to follow orders. It is not up to the soldiers. Don't like their orders? Then vote. We are going to end up like the second commonwealth, zealot vs. pharisee instead of Jew vs. Roman, if myopic rabbis like Trop keep this up.

This rabbi talks of Annapolis as a "moral crime." This rabbi wouldn't know morality if it was a fifty ton truck right in front of his face.

Tragic that today's rabbis think they have genuine semicha. They don't post roman times, nor do they have consensus authority after the Gaonic period. They can canvass and preach but not tear up our own soldiers who have enough on their plates. Israel's danger always comes from divide jewery.

Olmert is already instructing the IDF not to defend the people of Sderot and others who are bing fired upon by Hamas - becasue he doesnt want to upset anyone at Annapolis, and wants some photo opportunities shaking hands of other leaders. For this, he wont let the IDF defend Israelis, and will even evacuate other Israelis from their homes..

It is an interesting prospect. I personally would sooner see an entire Israel under Jewish leadership. The majority of Jews are still traditional (not "religious"). I like the prospects outlined in www.samsonblinded.org/blog which talks extensively about returning to a Torah Judea (I prefer Israel including Judea and Samaria of course), and this Torah state would not be the radical rabinical exageratations which make the Torah something else. I don't think anyone with a Jewish soul would oppose this, but they hear of a Torah state and panic, for good reason. Education and action is what is needed today. It's up to us, teshuva is nothing more then the substitute for action. Good thing the Maccabee's did not consider teshuva.

how will your economy work, like to pay for the weaponry and technology to defend yourselves, for starters? will it come at the expense of non-torah israel, or donations? it's not cheap, especially in light of the fact that today's israel would be in dire straits if not for, say, massive unending aid from the american government. just wondering.

We have been managing for 3200 years,and will keep doing. America is finite,Jewish people and Israel ,not.

yes this is the truth --- the bible comes first == it is proper to obey G-d first-- but you may suffer from your own people for it , your prophets were also persecuted ==== shalom ==== augustine e johnson - usa

We fought all our wars from 48-73 with zero 'aid' from the US. They actually supported our enemies. When we started to accept their bribes is when we started our decline. We could sell our weapons for example which in many cases are superior to US technology. Go to samsonblinded as there is a wealth of information. You, being a Christian may be uncomfortable with it, but it comes down to the bottom line, one is correct, the other has error. Hope you can be open to that.

Dear oh Dear Joseph i think you of all people are about the last person on earth to lecture on democracy. Unfortuently this little fantasy world you have created in your head has nothing to do with reality.

look at who you fought and how they were armed and organized. besides, i'm talking about this "judean torah state" and how israel will cope with the drop of support by america and the rest of israel's allies. where will the parts for the fighter jets come from (not to mention upgrading the aging fleet and funds required for these expensive machines)? how about the satellite support, maintenance, and delivery systems? what about the burden of manufacturing and raw materials needed for maintaining the arms advantage, etc? and i'm talking just about the defense aspect in light of the trade agreements israel has that will likely be abandoned. these are simple economic questions and my being a christian has nothing to do with my seeing the bottom line not adding up even remotely (that's your prejudice, not mine). i'm asking simple questions about how coping will occur, and i just would like a simple response, no big deal. if you cannot answer simple questions, that's fine. i can take that as my answer and learn from it.

Speaking from the point of view of a complete outsider (Canadian and Christian) I cannot understand, based on history alone, why anyone or any government would think that capitulation will bring peace. What drives a government to think, this time it will be different?

Mike, There are many countries that want to trade with us (militarily and commercial), but the US has basically said no. Why, because we accept the bribes. You being from the US should know who they care about and rightly so, themselves. I lived in the US for many years also. We would probably have some economic problems for sure. But, we have to take care of our own interests. For all the American toys we have become addicted to, we can reduce those needed with the actual threat of a strong response(not the empty promises), ie low grade nuke. After that, understanding the Arab mentality, they will leave us alone. If we return for eye for eye, measure for measure, they would back off immediatly. Many have attempted to predict the extent of the economic hit, and some have concluded a 30% downturn. That is nothing compared to what will happen if we are forced to abandon Judea and Samaria. Security wise as you would imagine and financially with those coming to Israel from J&S. It is a matter of survival now. It will affect us either way. Being we believe in the promises of the Torah, as I am sure you are aware, it's better we choose the stand, as opposed to the slaughter. Also, look at Feiglins site, I believe he has some information on the economic downturn we should expect if we head in this direction. No one knows for sure how it will end up, but we are at a fork in the road.

best-case scenario still would seem overly problematic, but what do i know? one of my concerns would be the infighting among your religious factions that would later, if not sooner, cripple any real progress and support from the outside. imagine the non-judean state being played off against the "settler"-types (which the media loves to demonize). imagine fighting for support (financial & political) against the seculars, as they won't want to lose any support (financial) they feel they have earned. or current weaponry. can't you just hear the moral-equivalent comparisons that will be made with the palestinians, with the"'hamas" and "fatah" labels predictably assigned? or the label of the jewish version of hizbullah's state within a state? talk about antisemitism going through the roof and rallying the islamic troops like has never happened before. jewish zealotry does not have a very good record, results-wise. the sinking feeling i have is that this won't bode well for much anyone except those that wish calamity on the jewish state. and that calamity i most certainly do not want, either for you or for my own selfish reasons.

No valid comparison. In the US, there is a constitutional clause of Posse Comittaus forbidding the use of the armed forces against the civilian population. Untill this was gutted by George Bush, that is. Here, you have an unelected depised PM and cabinet using the army in clearly immoral way. A civilian or even soldier has no other choice.

Problamatic, sure, and that is the best scenario. Infighting, so what else is new. There is an answer for that, but it's not for today, though I wish it where. We are in a pickle, We will depend on no one, as the world will turn against us (as it already has behind the scenes) but have survived like no other nation. It won't bode well for anyone who comes against us, that is a certainty, but not without many many casualties. Have you read Zechariah 12-14 lately? A video at www.torahohr.org I believe or you can google gog u magog. We are in for a show.