restaurants is done for people's health. Some think it is to enrich rabbis, but the real reason is to be and stay as healthy as possible. Drawing the line is an encouragement to others to eat healthier, which is an encouragement to restaurants and grocery stores to serve and stock healthier foods. I am nearly 60 and have not gotten sick at kosher Jewish restaurants in America. But I have gotten sick many times from food at non-kosher restaurants until I learned to be more selective about what I eat and to rarely eat at restaurants since there are so few kosher Jewish restaurants where I live and one must drive an hour to get to one. That is better than getting sick.

No, the issue of kitniyot is a false analogy. The prohibition of kitniyot is a tradition based on a faulty reading of the law, as someone from Machon Shilo well understands. It should have been voided by takana long ago. The kosher "cheeseburger", in contrast, is intended to provide by clever substitution a likeness to something prohibited, like the kosher "Bac-os" which provide a likeness to Bacon bits I first encountered in a kosher provisionary years ago. Or those kosher for Pesah multi-layer cakes. The author is correct that there's nothing "special" about shtetl food. But as one coming from a Sephardic background, who first encountered matza ball soup as a college freshman, I've long held a broader perspective on what is "Jewish food".

And I have never taken ill after eating pork,shellfish or cheeseburgers! Kosher is simply ancient myth and superstition. It is totally unrealated to health.( One of the largest Kosher slaughterhouses in the US was cited last year for numerous health,safety and labor violations)By all means keep kosher if U buy into these myths,But dont delude yourself that it is healthier or in any way more moral.

#3 maybe you should just call yourself canadian from now on, since you have no respect for jewish roots and traditions

Thank you Ynet for printing an intersting, though-provoking, and authentic Jewish article. I strongly suggest that everyone read the full version of the article at www.machonshilo.org.

Similar to this article, Rav Kook wrote an incredible article (called Ma'amar Ha-Dor) that analyzed the root cause of problems in his time. He said that as many Jews were being exposed to new intellectual ideas and scientific advances, when they turned to the rabbinic world for Jewish answers they were fed 'katnut' and thus continued, unfortunately, to drift away and assimilate. I strontly recommend this reading (in Hebrew).

I grew up a vegitarian, later learned to eat fish, later exposed to american fats food.... burger, at the university.... there was nothing else to eat cos everything was with lard and cooked - prepared from unkosher uthensils or something unkosher was in those food..Everything conteminated ! What to do ? what to do ?... one day felt quilty--very guilty- cry and cry...something happened in the heart....what else is available to eat ? Only Tea Tarik ( tea), Roti Prata, Kuih Muih Melayu thats all. Sometime baba nyonya kueh. They invite us for lunch, dinner, break fast,... still nothing to eat, cos it contains Prawn , shell fish etc. So I pretend to mingle, just to make friends while the stomach is hungry. Public funtions are a trauma ! But who care about us Jews ? They think we eat Pork, They are lead to believe we are like the xtains..same religion . They think we are western. These dumbos dont know anyrthing about our jewish culture and life styles. Some even wish M Xmas and send cards....friut cakes. During Yom Kippur, when it came to seeking pardon for eating non kosher food..I really dont know what to say to Hashem ? I spoke to the rabbi about the burger and cheese.... in fact two rabbis...both gave me a piece of their mind. But very good advice.From that day that is the end of cheese and meat. So keep kosher or starve. But I hope Public Places/ functions prepared Kosher booth with Kosher food for Jews.It is a very hard issue....food issue....most of the time end up being castigated and humiliated for not wanting to eat with them. They accuse us of not being thankful for food. served with love and compassion. Many more accusation we jews endure at the university, work place..name it...etc Food brings peopel together, but in judaism it is the other way around, We move away quietly...no because we are kosher boys,,,but we just dont feel comfortable inside. Strange but true ! But then it is better to keep the law and abide with the words of the Rabbi Morderchai Abergel than eating unkosher food. So the gentiles called me brainwashed . Better listen to your Rabbis. Kosher Food is good for you body that keeps the soul. Let me tell you fellows....it elevates the soul and keeps your body in harmony. G-d is never wrong. Listen to the Rabbis ! Flight- I prefer Singapore Airlines no body frowns when I order Kosher Meal : -) ~ Some friends who know me would say... Ben why dont you eat the muslim food ? What can I say ? I say , well, they add MSG, non -kosher salt, prawn paste, prawn and squid into their food and soup. Guess what happens after that ? I get more scolding :-)~ So my friends in Singapore by hook or crook bring with them a packet of Chapati.. for me.... serves them right for all the trouble.... actually these bunch of chinese gentile are very good fellows. You see as much as they curse me they love me too. This is something special about the Singapore Chinese.At the NTUC we jews can buy fresh veg and good fishes specially brought from Jurong fishery Port. Here we eat well , we live well , we prepare our own food at home.But , Outside at parties we refrain, and run the risk of getting lectures after lectures. Many food look kosher but actually it is not- kosher, know the ingredients. Burgers with cheese or not it is not kosher. Miil product is added to meat.It is out !! Eat in Restaurant ? May be but the uthensils used are all mixed up. need kashering . So eating in reatautrants is out also. " Jewish Food " ? well, just eat Kosher .Stay Kosher ! And check with your Rabbi from time to time, it is nice to get one or two slaps once in a while. Its nice !! Thanks to the Rabbinical Authority ( Kosher Division ). To the Singapore Govt : Ps allow Kosher Meat to come in from Australia- give us a license for meat shop !

all this land-worship and judaism-worship simply shows the spiritual bankruptcy of it all and how far the real point of it all is being completely missed.

As you've quoted Rav Kook, he was exactly right declaring "as many Jews were being exposed to new intellectual ideas and scientific advances, when they turned to the rabbinic world for Jewish answers they were fed קטנות ('katnut') and thus continued, unfortunately, to drift away and assimilate." That is precisely how the too-many רעי האליל (roei ha-elil) among the rabbis have driven 92% of the flock away from Torah. I read the article in machonshilo.org. While it brought out many excellent points, the fulcrum of the article is logically, and fundamentally, flawed: "The "new" teaching of Yonathan Ben Uziel is the shift from a purely rational and legalistic level of Torah, based on logical arguments and precedent to a level where intuition and inspiration from Above have a role to play." "Inspiration from Above" is recognizable because it will always reflect the order and logic of the Creator; just as the logical and orderly universe reflects its Creator. Anyone who asserts that all of the frogs in Egyptian plague came from one giant frog relies on intuition, legal fictions and fabulism, most assuredly NOT "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments"; *nor* "inspiration from Above"!!! Anyone who asserts that the Torah clearly and explicitly commands a petil tekhelet in our tzitzit, **therefore,** we must not have a petil tekhelet in our tzitzit applies the convoluted reasoning of intuition and legal fictions, *not* "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments" or "inspiration from Above." Anyone who can't distinguish between an umbrella and a tent applies the convoluted reasoning of intuition and legal fictions, *not* "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments" or "inspiration from Above." The list is endless. Every departure from the Torah practice that Avraham and Mosheh would recognize is the product of intuition, legal fictions and fabulism perniciously labeled "logic," the product of perverting "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments" and "inspiration from Above"!!! More dangerous, persuading Jews to accept intuition and "inspiration from Above" uncritically and *counter to* rational and logical arguments opens the door to the cultish following of an individual, based on nothing but charisma, claiming "inspiration from Above." *Only* "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments" is a dependable constraint to impose Torah limits on the superstitious and medieval intuitionists and fabulists who will otherwise have a free hand to continue driving away 92% of the flock. Further, *only* "a purely rational ... [understanding] of Torah, based on logical arguments" can steer "Judaism" back to Torah, restoring Torah and restoring Israel to Torah that is in harmony with the real, rational, logical and scientific modern world -- relevant to educated young Jews. Regressing to rabbinic intuition that gives free hand to roei ha-elil has a centuries-long record of stagnancy, deterioration and failure. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Erev Shabbat and Erev Khag in its on-line counterpart is a disservice to Jewish readers and a disgrace to Israel. Even ha-Aretz publishes candlelighting times. Paqid Yirmeyahu IIsraeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

What is the Temple if not land? Mike, b4 u jump to any conclusions about the importance of the Land of Israel as part of the "bigger picture" of Judaism, u should head over to www.machonshilo.org.

This is a GREATstep starting to discuss our return to our land and how it must be in terms of a more definite set of Jewish custom laws,now here in Eretz Yisrael.It is fundamental to start such a discussion! But ,what caracterizes Jews IS our connection to the past and to the furure.We run to the future connected to all of our History,since Adam.We ,B'H,don't leave one comma forgotten,and that's us. I was born Brazilian,but when I eat "mititei"or "mãmãliga cu branza" or "icri"(by the way,all found easily in Israel to be bought in the super marquet),I am not only eating Romanian food,but the food of my mother,my Jewish mother ,and my Jewish father and of all my Jewish Romanian ancestors. When I eat kosher "Feijoada"at my Sinagogue in Brasil,we are eating Jewish feijoada,which is symbolic of our jewish /brasilian History, that must be kept to the future along us. And when ,soon ,I will be only in Israel and no more in Brasil,I will cook a feijoada and eventually call friends from other nations and brazilians too to join my present ,which can not be disconnected from my past,B'H! A Kosher hamburguer is part of American culture from which we are so intensively part as well. Just one more observation: Goyim(inclusively many of those living unrightfully in our Eretz Yisrael- -some as sneaky missionary thieves-) wish us to be disconneted from our past,from our teachings,from the rules of our Rabis,in order to introduce satan among us,but it is OUR responsabilty to listen only to our Souls,to our history,to our past and to our future.

and don't eat a chicken in "halav emo"

Your article reminds me of some of those that try to separate meat and milk by keeping their pots, plates, glasses, cutlery and utensils separately. They keep kosher at home by trying not to spoil their kitchen vessels by mixing milk and meat and by not having non-kosher stuff on them. But they do eat many non-kosher things both inside and outside of the home as long as it is not on the kosher dishes so that they use paper plates for this. In other words, all that they do is keep their dishes kosher but not inside themselves. They say that they are following an old family tradition of keeping their dishes kosher. The point is that religion should be simple but somewhere along the line we have complicated things by adding 1001 different more rules so that the old original rule got lost. This is one example. Another example is so called "kosher style". What it means is that the meat is from a kosher kind of animal but that it has not been ritually slaughtered by a shochet. However, the price of "kosher style" is usually similar to that of kosher when in fact it's not. The only thing Jewish about it is that it's sold to Jews who think it's the real thing by Jews who know it's not.

HaRav David Bar-Hayim is a fascinating rabbi-I went to www.machonshilo.org and loved the audio-shiurim!

It's obvious from this article that in the world view/Torah view of Rav David Bar-Hayim, G-d is definitely in the picture. He's just making the point that we're dealing with the less important issues (tefel) rather than the importnat issues (ikar). At the beginning of the article it says we should "focus on the big questions that form the foundation of a Jewish society in the Land of Israel". This is quite an important thing and of course if involves G-d. Our task, is to set up a society where both individuals, and the collective national whole, are doing G-d's will in all aspects of our personal/communal/national life. By building such a G-d oriented nation, full of righteousness and justice, we can fulfill our goal of being a light unto the nations. I can go on an on here, but of course this involves G-d.

Machon Shilo is a wonderful organization! Kol HaKavod to Rav David Bar-Hayim!

2 options for this. One is Boca Burger, then put cheese on it. It's a veggie burger. If you like, substitute soya melt. Disgusting, but it does the job. Or, one can heat up some tofu in tomato sauce, put it on a hamburger bun, then add cheese. AAgain, one can substitute soya melt for the cheese. Enjoy.

...unless it brings a curse. Real cheeseburgers are already Kosher according to true Torah wording. The fact still remains that Rabbis have taken Torah out of context and created this law. One that the nation so willingly accepts. Moshe did not say you may not eat them together, what he did say was not to boil a kid in his mothers milk. Moses as a law giver, spoke this and wrote this, it is meant to be taken literally. I get frustrated when people state the written text is not meant to be taken literally. Where in the world history did the idea of G-d's laws not being literal first come about? Gan Eden! Moses didn't speak in parables. Law makers don't do this. The fact that many observe this created law of dietary nature but will visit a cafe on Shabbat and let another work for them needs to be looked at. Torah is about love for G-d not whether ones tummy feels good. If one chose a blessing your tummy will be protected. Rabbis cannot add or remove a word or create laws. The law which is very clear: "al tvashel gedi bhalav emo" Which includes the following components that can not be subtracted from Torah: Don't "boil" "a kid" "in his" "mother's milk." It is not open to interpretation. Separate sinks, refrigerators, towels, plates, time limits, separate restaurants, separate store sections, etc. What they are adding is absurd and expensive, is it not? Moses was no fool. Surely if even a mildly educated person wanted to tell a person not to eat milk and meat together they would have stated "Don't eat milk and meat together". If the plates were an issue, they would state it. It is a sin to add and subtract words from Torah to create new laws. So much has been added on this point alone. This is not being a judge over a case. Even the prophets did not add laws to Torah. How can average men without a miracle among them, be allowed to do this when Torah teaches us what criteria a person needs to have for adding new instructions to Torah? On the "looks non-kosher " issue I say they most certainly you can eat. It is an ordinance. Can you park in a spot that looks like it might be a no-parking zone when you know parking is permitted there? On the issue of a kosher cheeseburgers being a spiritual flaw? If the creation of the "look-alike" is of a mocking nature of Hashem, then the mocking is in fact a spiritual flaw. If however the food is created because it tastes good, why not? On the issue of whether one should eat in a restaurant at all What if the food preparer is careless? The accidents should not make us prisoners afraid to venture into our land and visit its wonderful places. People will be “un clean” spiritually-wise for the day if they mistakenly ingest a forbidden food. It happens all the time with grains and salads. The whole Kosher freak out, is out of proportion. If the food is made of kosher ingredients according to Torah, there is no dietary basis for not eating out. Jews are not required by Torah to sit home on their hands and not go out be social and enjoy life within the bounds of Torah and the celebration of Hashem. On the issue of whether one should stick to eating “Jewish food” I say, definitely not. One should stick to Torah and not seek to make other nations viewed negatively by stating because a food looks non-Jewish it is inedible. You are not allowed to follow their G-d's or religion, but their is no prohibition against the appearance of food. Adding and subtracting laws from Torah, this is a sin. Complicating Torah is the reason why people don't embrace it. Better to have an dietary ordinance violation than and one honoring Shabbat, than to distance Jews from Torah for the purpose of building one more unnecessary “fence”.

If someone is so interested to find out the truth, find out for yourself see how sick you feel when you eat the wrong thing just be sure to have plenty of soda, antacids and a good doctor's number ready, for that final moment when your tummy swings to the tune of indigestion.

Complicating Torah is the reason why people don't embrace it. Don't you know there are 3 sentences in the Torah relating to mixing milk and meat, not just the one you quoted? Don't know if you were aware of that.

..I know there are three references that are nearly identical related to boiling a kid in his mothers milk. There are NOT however three sections related to "mixing" that is an outright lie. Deuteronomy 14:21, Exodus 23:19 and 34:26 Did you know there are two places where it prohibts adding laws to the written Torah? Where are the Rabbinical over reactions on this? Is it because their is no money to be made or power to grab in sticking to the real Torah? The "fence" three part milk/meat laws are adding Torah related laws to the nation of Israel, aren't they? Do you mean to tell me the "adding/subtracting" clauses of Torah are less important than dietary ordinaces? If every ruler in history that conquered the Jews, and every Messiah cult, and bablyonian kidnapper, added to the Torah, we wouldn't know which words were G-d's and which were a cultist movement. We wouldn't know if the Pro-David prophets or even the bet migdash was in fact the right location and family for the Messiah. We wouldn't know if their were to be five books of Moses, ten books, or only one. The rabinical excuses are lame and the adding is fowling up Torahs intent. They assume that people have no idea how to tell lamb and goat meat and their milk from that of a cow. They ignore the boiling aspect. Even if you took goat milk from one goat and boiled a kid from another goat, you would not be in violation of what is written. Turkey, chicken, and cows are not goats or lambs. Jews are not ignorant about what they eat. Have a little faith Rabbis and lift these laws. How is a cheese and chicken sandwich any risk of a mistake? I can see it now. The Jewish mother all over the globe saying, "Gee I thought this leg of lamb was turkey breast slices. Silly me I put a chunk of cheese in my milk glass, how careless I thought it was boiling milk. Get real, their up to something and its not Torah. For the outside chance one could actually achieve boiling a kid in its mothers milk unintentinally, decades of suffering undue kosher restrictions and billions of dollars have been spent in case someone might be spiritually un clean by accident. This is not to mention how many walked away from torah and suffered damage to their souls and curses on their children. Children who go on to marry pagans because the chet rabbinic additions to Torah under the fences loophole, made life to crazy to deal with. Where is their wisdom in this? Fact is these are ordinances and if an accident happens it is better to allow the person to deal with their spiritual "un clean" status than to legislate laws in violation of Torah and to drive people away from the really important stuff. Torah actually explains how to handle this spiritual un clean status, so it is expected to occur and no punishement is legislated. Torah is complete and that's why adding to it is forbidden.

Those "3 sentences in the Torah relating to mixing milk and meat" say nothing about slapping a piece of cheese on an already cooked piece of beef. After all, it's ok to put cheese on a fish sandwich, right? You build your fence here, I'll build it over there. In the mean time the Rabbis can argue about it for another 2,000 years.

Since he doesn't make it clear in his message where he's coming from (constructively making him a deceiver), some quotations from Mike, Israel (formerly USA) demonstrate where he's coming from and where he's trying to take you: He self-identified himself as a Christian and "goy immigrant" (2006.11.28) "rabbinic judaism is what is outside of god's redemption." ( 2007.04.19) "god kept his promise to rescue a RACE, not people practicing a kind of religion)... god's faithfulness IS to a RACE, which is a fact. you cannot change how you were born, although you can change what you believe. besides, issac, i am a goy myself who believes in the one true god of abraham, isaac, and jacob. that is my only connection to him (which is the only connection that really matters) by his grace [by which Xns mean J*esus]... being christian, i know jews who are christian" (2007.05.23) Notice, in a classic self-contradiction in the previous quotation, that "the only connection" he declares "really matters" ISN'T being born a Jew -- this despite his contradictory declaration that "god's faithfulness IS to a RACE." He disguises and regurgitates the classic Xn "godless Jews" canard: "interesting that god is nowhere in the picture -- all this land-worship and judaism-worship simply shows the spiritual bankruptcy of it all and how far the real point of it all is being completely missed." (2007.12.31). PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Erev Shabbat and Erev Khag in its on-line counterpart is a disservice to Jewish readers and a disgrace to Israel. Even ha-Aretz publishes candlelighting times. Paqid Yirmeyahu IIsraeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Since he doesn't make it clear himself (which constructively makes him a deceiver), to give you a handle on where he's coming from and where he's trying to take you... "Father is Jewish mother is not. Made Aliyah, converted and ... Jerusalem, Israel (09.10.07)" "I converted in the US... (08.22.07)" He wasn't converted Orthodox: "So the Othodox dont accpet me - well I dont accpet what they are doing. It is sinning regardless of the source of the accusation. Whether I point it out or someone else points it out - they are sinning and bringing Israel curses. they are using cult practices to manipulate the minds of Jews and brainwash them into submission." (2007.11.12) Therefore, he is a goy, not a Jew. He writes like a Karaite who has no grasp of Oral Law or Halakhah: "no mikvahs, no kosher salt, no shabbat candles, no repetitive prayer, no meat and milk bs, not hanukah, no kaballah, no rabbis, etc. Restore the Levi as leaders, allow us to chose wise men as our judges in Torah courts. Enough of the cults and big business religion. (12.27.07) Every vile individual who thinks Yom Kippur participation will get them out of the just and righteous judgment of G-d is deluded. (12.28.07)" That's where Josh is trying to take you. PS: the most popular Israeli Jewish newspaper not publishing candlelighting times on Erev Shabbat and Erev Khag in its on-line counterpart is a disservice to Jewish readers and a disgrace to Israel. Even ha-Aretz publishes candlelighting times. Paqid Yirmeyahu IIsraeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il haaretz (990 char, title 65 char, ENTER ----, HBR TYPE IN BKWRD [ha-Aretz pets get bigger word limit]) Rosner's Guest > Jennifer Anne Moses 2008.01.01 Evangelicals love different perception of "Jewish Israel" 1of2 I'm a former Baptist preacher -- a former evangelical -- and I understand evangelicals far better than Jennifer. Evangelicals perceive "Jewish Israel" as an Israel of Jews, which "secular Jews" would be ok with. However, evangelicals definitely do NOT love a Jewish Israel as Jews understand the phrase -- which means a Judaic Israel, an Israel oriented to Torah-keeping that precludes the adoption of Christianity. Jennifer is correct, however, that this is a matter of evangelical, and general Christian, ignorance ("Christian religiosity") of Jews, Israel and Judaism, not hostile intentions. She is also right that the product is "sharing," not pogroms. Paqid Yirmeyahu IIsraeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il haaretz (990 char, title 65 char, ENTER ----, HBR TYPE IN BKWRD [ha-Aretz pets get bigger word limit]) Rosner's Guest > Jennifer Anne Moses 2008.01.01 Evangelicals love different perception of "Jewish Israel" 2of2 Jews who aren't prepared with documented historical facts and intelligent answers to Christian "sharing" (evangelism) have no one to blame but themselves and, therefore, no right to suppress free speech by Christians (or anyone else, for that matter). Statistics from all polls in recent years show that while 92 of every 100 Jews flees the rabbis, only 1-2 of them adopts Christianity. Clearly, assimilation is the result of internal revulsion, not external attraction (missionaries). Not only is she right that we shouldn't get bent out of shape hearing "Merry Xmas" or "J*sus loves you," we should respond kindly with documented historical facts and intelligent answers, not let it slide and their ignorance grow until the 92 grows to 100. Susam (#7) is right too. Paqid Yirmeyahu IIsraeli Orthodox Jew Advancing Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

in 1980 while in israel i met with rav kook the grandson of THE rav kook. now my question, why do we hear nothing about arik sharon your new pm is an utter disgrace, tell us and your own people of israel is this silence halachily correct for get your cheese burgers, ok.

name yourself you canadian , jewish enough under nazi definition, possibly but a real jew i dont think you quilify dear canadian {jew}

A very interesting scam is mostly being played on many Jews in North America. It's called the "kosher style" scam. In many stores that are owned by Jews, meat is being sold to many other Jews as "kosher style" which isn't kosher at all. This meat looks kosher, smells kosher, feels kosher, tastes kosher, etc. It also tends to cost the same as kosher but it's not kosher because it is not ritually slaughtered by a shochet or ritual slaughterer. In other words, this treif or unkosher meat is being sold to ignorant Jews by smart Jewish merchants at above the usual unkosher meat prices and at kosher meat prices. Buyer beware of the unkosher scam.