Is discussing serious social problems illegal? Segregation is one of the nastiest forms of fascism. Forcing women in to the backs of busses, while most orthodox seem to do little/nothing to stop them is disgraceful. Every attack on a women by A BUNCH of orthodox (not just one psycho) is met with a massive tirade of "this doesn't reflect the community" while at the same time that community seems more and more submissive to this movement. I think it's fair game to discuss it. As I said forced segregation through violence and intimidation of this nature is one of the nastiest forms of fascism in human history. It should not be off limits because it's about charedim. What are we segregating what people can report about now too? P.S. the article wasn't against charedim. In fact it was discussing how this wasn't the case a decade ago, a generation ago. It's discussing this as a PHENOMENON that the chardeim seem to be unwilling to challange even though many seem to disagree with.

hEY! Im a frum Yid and living in the diaspora when taking the metro or train several times i had to remain stand up cause of tziniout. I dont see any problem at all with being a mentch , with being proud of our jewish identity. Whats the problem with being frum and let all goyishe standards of life in the toilet!!!! Come Yidden ! for once in life lets be real: lets behave like jews not like goyim.

I am an old woman. I remember that neither my Bubbe nor my mother wore a sheitel. We did , however, wear hats on our heads and gloves on our hands when we went to shul . We sat upstairs whlie our menfolk sat downstairs. On Saturday night in the shul social hall we had dances where we danced together. guys and gals. I assure you this shul was Orthodox. We used to laugh at the Conservative Temple uptown and called the members goyim. When I worked in Israel 50 years ago I worked with some Orthodox girls who wore long sleeved dresses, long skirts and cotton stockings in the oppressive heat. We had no air conditioning then--believe it or not--The rest of us did not feel we were being immodest with our stockingless legs and our short sleeve dresses. I no longer belong to an Orthodox shul but that Conservative up town place. Frankly, however, I do not recognize the new Orthodox laws. I really feel, women instead of progressing in society, the position of women is regressing to Middle Ages. What next the Burqa?

as much as i generally dislike orbach, there is some validity to his argument. but lets think a little deeper ... the problem with chumrahs (extra strictures) in general is that in the end, no matter how established the frum jewish community is, jews are still an "all volunteer" force. every religious jew needs to view himself as the only jew left on the planet and must have the personal fortitude to stand up to anything. by heaping on "required" chumrahs (an oxymoron), we are disrespecting these strong frum jews and crippling them by not allowing them to build up their own personal character and strength. ghettos do not breed gedolim.

"And I shall certainly make boys their princes[ lack maturity] and mere arbitrary power will rule over them." God goes on to say ' people will actually tyrannize one over the other..' Isn't this the case when one doesn't look, to what God actually says , there is then the necessity to look to men as 'dictators' to dictate what we should or should not do? We lose freedom and men tyrannize over another in religion and political matters.

I would be interested in seeing any POSITIVE articles about non-Chareidim in Chareidi newspapers, but I'm not holding my breath.

provocative. To some, it still is. I did not see men and women misbehaving on buses in Israel, but there is the very real possibility of demons on one person jumping onto another person. That happened when my sister Martha's husband died and the demon of meanness and profanity jumped off him onto her. There are many kinds of demons that cause various kinds of deviant behavior. How do you keep them from traveling with you, even on a segregated by sex bus. Remember that Baalam the prophet could not see the angel of death the donkey could see. People are blind to a lot of spiritual things. It is true, a little evil spoils much good and one rotten apple can spoil a barrelful of apples. But isn't there the real possibility that the spiritual people can have a positive effect on the secular if they mix on buses? I felt inspired when I saw a Haredi at Ben Gurion Airport and I kissed my hand and then touched the rim of his hat. That caused great offense when none was intended. I think the segregated buses are more about control than anything else. The Rabbis want to know if they are still in charge and how much power they have.

What never seems to worry you is the possibility of committing the sin of Lashon haRa. What you seem to forget is that the Arabs stole from the Romans who stole from us! If this were the Ark of the Covenant we were talking about here, and (we're talking hypothetically here) the Jebusites stole it from the Philistines who stole it from us, would the Israelites under Daniel not have waged war on the Jebusites to regain the Ark? Does the same not hold true for the entirety of Eretz Yisrael? Let's also not forget that the Arabs committed murder in stealing from the Romans, who, in turn committed murder in stealing from us. Doesn't this sound a little like, "because you drowned others, others drowned you; those who drowned you will eventually be drowned." On the other hand, some Palestinians claim descent from the Philistines and Canaanites (even though this claim is completely spurious), and although there are halachic prohibitions against theft and murder, these prohibitions do not extend to the Israelites' wars against the Canaanites and the Philistines. If, indeed, the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites and Philistines (even though this a logical impossibility), Jews are mandated by G-d to drive them out of Eretz Yisrael. The Jews' right to dispossess the Canaanites of the land of it is affirmed by both the New Testament and the Qur'an- the two holy books of these "Canaanites". Either way, Chanalau, your accusations are baseless and constitute Lashon haRa. So do the accusations of the Neturei Karta. Please think before you post next time...

There is a story of a rabbi's daughter who after coming out of her father's office would have to pass her father's talmidim waiting in line to see him on the stairs. One day a talmid turned his head away as she passed. She said to him "It is better that you look at me and think of the wall, than to look at the wall and think of me".

He finds any opportunity to criticize Hareidim. Had he learned the Laws of Loshon Hara, he would be far more careful before criticizing other religious, observant Jews in public and in writing. He is simply trying to win points with the non-observant, anti-Hareidi parts of the population. How sad. How wrong.

to look upon a maid. It is more likely the man will think of the woman if he looks at her than if he looks at the wall, as insulting or impolite as that may seem. If the man has a problem with desire if he looks at a woman, as Job obviously did, then he should not look upon a woman. Job maintained his moral purity by that simple rule, it appears.

the faults of others IS LOWLY. Talking against chareidim is secular’s number one favorite subject. And yes, Gilad, discussing negatively about a group of Jews is illegal according to Torah. It’s called Lashon Harah. And this is what I’m trying to convey. You would NEVER find chareidi newspapers with slander and hate against Secular Jews. Why? Because Chareidi newspapers have class and ethical values which the secular media does not!

In chareidi newspapers you might not find any "positive" articles about seculars but you would NEVER find hateful articles about seculars either. The chareidim feel a tremendous amount of pity (rachmanut) on those who, unfortunately, left or are not aware of the real Jewish traditional roots. Whereas, in the secular media, not only would they not write anything "positive" about chareidim, but it's ALWAYS full of hate, slander and shmutz about chareidim and they feel they have to make sure to say the more the merrier. Sadly, they indeed poisoned many minds who got a very negative attitude towards chareidim. Those who know the chareidim well, know that they are the most wonderful people to live with. It’s simply jealousy of the seculars who feel that if the chareidi way of life is the right one, they have to join them. But since they’re not ready for it, they have to slam it in order to justify their means.

If those charidim need this segregation , because otherwise ... who knows what could happen ? Do they need this in order to refrain them from having some ideas or desires ? or , worse , to act ? No , i think that nice women may be looked at , and they may be seen .

Next time you drive from Jlem to TA, have a good look at the Haredim Hitchike poste by the Paz Gas station on the right side of the road shortly after the cross road towards Dead See....and tell me what you see ? Why would everyone want to become like that ? Let those who believe do as they please, and the other as they also please. I feel sorry for you, really. I wonder if your computer has an adjusting system allowing to cut off the power exactly in line with the Shabbes calendar of this year ...and above all , I really wonder if you keep a strictly Kosher home and life ......SOme details do not match !!!

Maybe you don't see hate towards seculars in your papers , but we have seen many hatefull charidi faces in Jerusalem . And this you do not see from seculars . They don't throw stones at charidim , your people do it at seculars

There are maybe not anti seculars hate writings in your papers , but we have seen hatefull faces of your people in Jerusalem . Seculars don't throw stones at your cars , you and your friends do it . And telling this , is this hate ?

Dispossess the Canaanites before we were exiled is one thing but dispossessing and killing Palestinians is another. The former was explicitly commanded by G-d through prophets, namely the Patriarchs, moshe (a”h) and Joshua (a”h), while the latter wasn't. Furthermore, the former was a punishment to the Canaanites and a Kiddush hashem by showing that the Canaanite deities were powerless and utterly useless, while hashem is Amighty. On the contrary it is hard to see how killing or displacing Palestinians is a Kiddush hashem. First in the world we live in today, unlike in biblical times, such acts are considered murder and theft among non-Jews, and thus do not sanctify Judaism in the eyes of many people. Simply bcos some things that sanctified hashem in bilbilcal terms wouldn’t today. For example, in biblical terms having numerous wives and slaves, was a sign of G-d's blessings and a Kiddush hashem but it wouldn't be considered so today in the west. Secondly, given that the two main Palestinian religions profess belief in the G-d of avraham (a"h), and some isrealis are disrespectful of traditional Judaism (as this article and talkbacks suggest), this is neither a case of discrediting pagan deities as in biblical times or even discrediting erroneous belief systems. But even if it were, given the first point, it would need to be done without killing or displacing the indigenous Palestinians in order to avoid a hhilul hashem. One simply cannot sanctify hashem with one hand while doing hhilul with the other. Bear in mind that in the world we live in today, traditional Judaism with its laws on morality including those on modesty as practiced by the haredim is the best way to discredit erroneous belief systems, as opposed to territorial conquest. The public use of religion by some to justify this nationalistic conflict may lend some justification to the parties involved and the means they employ but it is hard to see how it sanctifies hashem. That said chanalau is wrong, as haredim neither kill nor dispossess Palestinians or anyone else for that matter. Furthermore, modesty, even extreme modesty, as with extremism towards Jewish morality and social justice, is a good thing, and can never be too much.

for leading a G-dfearing Orthodox life the way G-d wants from EVERY Jew, and from you too. And yes, my computer is off the entire 25 hours of Shabbat and so is all my weekday work. It would be nice for you to "try" keeping Shabbat for one week the Orthodox way. After that no need to try because you yourself will be wondering where you were all these years. Well, better late than never.

Just like there are a few hot-tempered, fanatical seculars, like Peace Now and other ultra-Leftwing lunatics who would go protesting together with Arabs against Israel and throw stones and what not at police and IDF, it doesn’t portray the general secular public. You agree with that. Right? So it is with chareidim. There are a few zealous chareidim stone-throwers, but it doesn’t portray most chareidim, as you know quite well, are quiet, well-mannered orthodox Jews. However, going back to the media issue, you cannot deny that the secular media in general is not comparable to the cultured media of chareidim.

Cultured media of the charidim ?, maybe , but mostly in their religious fields , not in world culture , not open to other views . We are awaiting another behaviour from "religious" people , not stone throwing hateful faces , no ? I agree , they are not the majority , but for them , all , seculars are only fine when they need us . instead of your JewRusalem , i prefer ירושלים

I agree with you about the separate buses going too far (although having recently visited Israel, I found it actually a relief not to be pushed and shoved by men, as I used to be on the mixed buses). But your comment about charedi women making their skirts and sleeves longer and longer is only partially correct. It's not only in response to the secular women who cover hardly anything. It's also a reaction to right wing Orthodox women coming from America who push the envelope -- with clothes that are just a little too tight, blouses just a little too short--so their midriff shows when they raise their arms, fashions with undershirts deliberately showing so lace peeps out at the top and the bottom. Sometimes I feel like every charedi woman I see is EITHER wearing tasteless clothes that are too obviously influenced by the street, OR ridiculously covered up like a nun or an Arab. Where are the just plain normal people in tasteful, modest, dignified, NORMAL clothes?

Please note how I justified Israeli actions against Palestinian Arabs: "What you [Chanalau] seem to forget is that the Arabs stole from the Romans who stole from us! If this were the Ark of the Covenant we were talking about here, and (we're talking hypothetically here) the Jebusites stole it from the Philistines who stole it from us, would the Israelites under Daniel not have waged war on the Jebusites to regain the Ark? Does the same not hold true for the entirety of Eretz Yisrael? Let's also not forget that the Arabs committed murder in stealing from the Romans, who, in turn committed murder in stealing from us. Doesn't this sound a little like, 'because you drowned others, others drowned you; those who drowned you will eventually be drowned.'" A fact I did not mention was that the Arabs started the 1948 and 1967 wars and Israel coming into possession of all it currently holds is the result of two attempted genocides against Jews by Arabs. The killing and displacing of Arabs in Palestine (who, as Judaism and history both hold, are not indigenous) were acts of self-defense. Self-defense is permitted by Halacha. BTW, Ovadia, did you know that most of the Arabs fled their homes of their own free will? 60% of the refugees never even saw an Israeli soldier! Please understand both what people are writing and the history behind the issue before you issue condemnations, Ovadia...

Thanks for your reply to me. However your point is not a true point. You cannot say that any and all criticism and discussion is forbidden because of "Lashon Harah" as you said. Principles of not badmouthing others only apply so far, and cannot stop legitimiate debate about where a community is headed and if they are allowing small groups to lead them by thuggery. Talk against the Charedim is only in the secular vocabulary when it comes to the sense that haredim are forcing seculars away from places through intimidation - such as "women must dress modestly", or areas where you get rocks thrown at your car if you drive on shabbat, or now, if women sit in the wrong place on a haredi bus route in some areas of jerusalem (few but growing). Israel is a country of the Jewish people and as such secular Jews should not be frightened of areas of their own countries, or what law that limits their freedoms Shas or Degel ha torah will come up with next under "morality". As such, legitimiate discussion about the topic doesn't constitute "lashon harah" in most secular views. Whats worse for most seculars is being scared of certain bus routes, or certain areas on shabbat. Physical violence much worse than the discussion about it you are saying seculars are not allowed to have. When it doesn't affect THEIR FREE RIGHTS, seculars don't give a damn what haredim are up to. For you to slander Seculars as you did is lashon harah. The fact that you overgeneralized seculars so greatly with such a singular viewpoint is complete slander on your behalf, but i guess you only think "lashon harah" applies when it's against something you want to defend and it doesn't apply to your slander and overgeneralizations of millions of people and hundreds of different media outlets

and since most haredim women are pregnant & /or looking after children, who easily get travel sick, if anyone should sit at the back of the bus, it should be the men! they can always draw a curtain across the aisles if it bothers them so much. we are middle aged, i cover my hair, i wear modest clothes & my husband wears a black hat - do our clothes, or head coverings, say anything about how we behave or think, other than we follow a certain dress code. i don't think so. i am bothered by this idiocy a lot and i have been told to move more than once. it is because certain people think that if they concern themselves with 'modesty' it will solve the 'shidduch crisis.' in my opinion the thing that will solve the shidduch crisis is addressing the agunot crisis, not worrying about where women sit on the bus or how modestly they are dressing. if it carries on like this, as someone already suggested we will all be wearing burkhas!! i don't want to live under a jewish taliban thank you very much, and neither does my haredi rabbi.

Public buses are for all to use. However well intentioned Israel is for the Haredim, this is taking it a step far. If public money must be spent on Haredim transport, then at least put it only in the communities where it will be used and where it is desired. In such communities, there must be an alternative to fill the needs for those who don't wish to use this. For me, I'll take the sherut.

No one is bashing the Orthodox here , the article is merely stressing that there is a serious problem with how its evolving. And the reason that it bother us is because separate buses, longer skirts, black hats, black and white uniform e.c.t. are the vehicles one unfortunately needs to fit into this group, without it, one is simply not "frum." The exterior is becoming a serious threat, the way one dresses is becoming more important than ones values and morals. This is why one needs to address these issues.

This is not Orthodoxy. Author is right, I see it a bit in the States too. Not on buses, but the limitless creaton of Chumras for this and for that. ORTHODOX RABBINATE: Get a grip on this lunacy. If modern orthodoxy deteriorates, the disenchanted won't go to Ultra-Orthodoxy anymore than they will go to Reform. They'll go to nothing.

TO :# 8, Shalom The 1st line of your 1st paragraph tella us what your beliefs,and you, are. One thing is very obvious, you and your believers are very confortable in the midst of garbage. While you do not belong "in" garbage, your ghettos do not reflect this. The ist thing you do when in need to protest is throw garbage in the streets and set dumpsters ablaze--Your very learned rabbis are not very much different than the very learned mullahs. You BOTH invent new stupid rules to suit your beliefs ,but not the majority"s Quotes:" we do not despise any one who does not believe as we do"--" our women are not second class citizen". One lie after another.But as you "guessed", interpretation of the rules by jews and muslims varies a great deal. As one of your leaders in the Knesset acknowledged "" If it takes blackmail, so be it"