"kinot sofrim tarbai Torah" The truth is that these groups started because they hated Chabad. Aish is know as the most rapid haters of Chabad, the others range from dislike to liking Chabad. I personally think it better that each group goes it alone. I hate Ash HaTorah's low level Rabbies but like Chabad's intellectualism, but others might feel the opposite. So perhaps need both.

The problem is very simple. Chabad doesn't just try to draw people towards Yiddiskeit, they throw something else in there too. They all focus to much on their Rebbe. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a great and holy man, but there were alot of other Gedolim. It seems that what alot of people from Chabad are doing is trying to impress on people that being lubavitch is the only correct way to be Jewish- and that is the problem. A problem other kiruv organizations stay away from 'cause they have no other agenda. They try to bring people closer to Yidiskeit, period. Why do you think it's all the kiruv organizations on one side and Chabad on the other? May Hashem bring us all together in peace and happiness.

What planet are you on Yehuda - you really say the other non kiruv organizations have no agenda - you are really brain washed. They all have their agendas and whilst i may not be a Chabadnik - you should realsie Chabad started Kiruv and they brought back more Jews than anyone. I sense jelously and absurdity - all organisations have their agenda in the kiruv world. Chabad is Jews doing mitzvas - the Rebbe never said you had to come a Lubuvitcher - but moset others want you to become a Litvischer. Fact : Chabad started kiruv and is the most successful because they believe every Jew is a diamond - if the other organizations followed this and were 1/10 as as successful - then they might get somewhere more.

If Chabad were to focus so much on itself, Crown Heights would be bursting at the seams. There would be hundreds of thousands of new Lubavitchers. The truth is that for all of the thousands of Chabad centers, not many become "Lubavitchers". They do, however, go on to increase their level of observance and connection to G-d. Go in to any Kiruv org and ask where people got their start. Chabad will be on most of the lips. The Orthodox world hurts itself with this historical revisionism. Remember, love is what we need.

Chabad did NOT start the kiruv movement. The kiruv movement started among groups of young baalei teshuva on college campuses in the 1970s, on very much of a do-it-yourself bases. In the 1980s Chabad tried to muscle in on it and claim that they started it. But it ain't so.

why there is no cooperation is because of the yechi yodelers. The meshichistim cult give a bad name name to Chabad & scare off other normal Jews from being involved. If the Yudel (Krinsky) & others bemore forcefull & disown them (yechi yodelers) Chabad would be more respected by others within Orthodoxy. I am a Lubavitcher Chosid myself & am disgusted with the Neo-Christians who claim to be Chasidim of my Rebbe,ZY"A!!!

To understand why chabad and the rest of orthodox outreach can't connect, read David Berger's recent piece in the Jerusalem Post on chabad.

There is competition for funds, but that is a healthy situation, but there is plenty of work and oppotunity for everyone. Let the Reform, Reconstructionists and Conservative movements compete too.

The best response to assimilation is giving the children a possibility to learn in a Jewish school , not necessarely Orthodox , beginning from kindergarten untill college . They can have the state program + some hours Judaism . But the most important , they will have Jewish friends = less intermarriage = less assimilation . I attended once a Chabad Seder , for me it was too much Chabad propaganda , and far from enough Seder .

You are extremely naive! If you really don't know the problem between chabad and therest of orthodoxy I suggest you read about a phenomenon known as MISNAGDIM!

they preach with the bottle.

There are two problems here. One is that Chabad in many ways sees itself separate from the rest of the Jewish world. This is not just in Kiruv but in almost everything they do. They do not look to make people Jewish, they look to make them Chabad. The second is that there is a certain stigma associated with Chabad. The name itself tends to turn non-Chabadniks away. (Sort of the way so many people accept the beliefs of Rabbi Meir Kahane but so few would dare consider themselves Kahanists). So the rest of the Orthodox world likes what Chabad does as far as Kiruv but do not want to be associates with the people who stand on a Manhattan corner asking everyone that passes to shake their lulav.

These cults that collect Jews to give them added teachings to Torah are all providing a negative impact on Beni Israel. Adding to Torah is forbidden and is a sin. I saw today a young orthodox chap chasing a Russian immigrant to bind tephilin. The poor child thinks he is doing the man a favor and something good for Israel. If this vulnerable child and immigrant only knew. It is clear that tephillin mentioned in Torah is a symbolic reminder to do Torah and not an object. . The first is binding the exodus, the second the redemption of the first born and the third all the words of Torah. Did the people that staff the tables explain what this Russian what he would be reminding himself of? Did they even call on the man to come look at the beautiful teachings written in Moses' words? No way. Are these not the words that are supposed to be remembered, the words that you speak of on your way? Would it not be an insult to G-d to state you reminded yourself to do something when you know you have never even read Torah? Why are these men not speaking these words but playing with objects and incantations? That's because these cult don't care if the man walks two meters and robs someone. They just need the magic juice for the Babylonian cults. This talisman that the Babylonian Orthodox call tephilin is really the same one mentioned in Yehezkeil 13. "to slay souls", "to capture souls", and "cowed the hearts of righteous ones". If you saw a movie where an object captured a man's soul, would you then go out to the street and use it? Would you use anything that looks like it? After reading Yehezkeil 13 and understanding that this is a real man, a real prophet who speaks about real Kohen Gadols and Real San Hedrins and states they were slaying the souls of the jews for profit, would you not reasses the type of authorization given to our spiritual leaders? Those who cannot explain what where a kippah comes from or acknowledge the box they call tephilin does not match the description of binding all the words of Torah? Wolves entering the flock and picking on the weak and fallen men of Israel who do not know true Torah knowledge. Who among Israel thinks G-d is about objects, idols and man made items? What about incantations? Give a show of hands. The only reason that these movements are running to chase more people to bind tephilin is that they are losing the enrollment of Jews who now understand they are being misled. If Jaacob removes magic from their tents they cannot be cursed and if the Jews do not put on these talisman objects, the Rabbis lose what Baallam lost a long time ago, the use of magical powers over the Jews. Whether a person assimilates or joins a cult, they are lost to the true words of Torah and are busy either chasing Babylonian ideals and magic or secular ideals. Both bare curses for Beni Israel. Just read it and think about it already. Torah states the individual should love Hashem and by doing so they will not allow others to mislead them. They will pass the tests that G-d gives such as Devarim 13. A message neither group teaches as they mislead.

You state: Chabad did NOT start the kiruv movement. Yet in the very next statement you say: The kiruv movement started among groups of young baalei teshuva on college campuses in the 1970s, on very much of a do-it-yourself bases. In the 1980s Chabad tried to muscle in on it and claim that they started it. You need no more than examine your claim: The kiruv you are talking about started in the 1970's at best. Yet, Chabad was organizing retreats for college students as far back as the late 40's and 50's. By the late 70's there were already more than two dozen Chabad Houses specifically focused on campus, with dozens more Chabad centers throughout the US. Even today there are over 100 full-time campus Chabad Houses in the US, with dozens more throughout the world. With all the hoo-haa being made over other "Orthodox kiruv" orgs they are still, at best, in their infancy. Just because you say it ain't so, doesn't mean that history doesn't exist.... In terms of the broader picture of cooperation, I believe cooperation exists where it is feasible and possible. But when a large percentage of other Kiruv orgs have a "slash and burn" mentality (i.e. coming into a city or campus looking just to "save" a few souls with little concern for who they may push too far or push away), that is obviously not going to sit well with the local Chabad House that has often been building relationships with that same community for years or decades. Not to mention the rampant "anti-Chabad" line that many of these kiruv organizations feed...

There really shouldn’t be a problem. When Chabad completely disassociates itself from what can only be described as a messianic Jewish element within their ranks they should be considered equal partners. But let’s not make Chabad something they are not. The funniest comment on this whole thing was the first talkback by Eliezer that spoke of his admiration for ‘Chabad's intellectualism.’ Seriously, Chabad’s Intellectualism? Chabad is an anti rational, anti intellectual populist movement that feeds people fluff to get them to participate. Intellectualism? Don’t be silly. Next thing you know this guy is going to call "chicken soup for the soul" a scholarly work

Outreach in the Orthodox world has been going on since the '70s - first in Israel, then in the USA and other countries. Your lack of knowledge shows why other groups don't bother to align with Chabad. I had experience with Chabad a number of years ago, and I found their attitude to other Orthodox groups really obnoxious - "if you aren't Chabad and don't believe in the Rebbe then you aren't really Orthodox." "All Jews are Chassidim - they just don't know it yet." And then there are those who claim that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe didn't really pass away - he's still hovering over us waiting to rise from the dead. There are good reasons other outreach groups don't affiliiate with Chabad groups. And it's not true that Chabad was the only pioneer outreach group. The Diaspora Yeshiva and other yeshivas in Israel were also active at the beginning. It's nice that you've realized we're here. Now all you have to do is convince the other Chabadniks that we're really Orthodox.

...after all it is more intelligent than that which claims a chicken can be boiled in its mother's milk and we call these men "sages". All the wisdom of a luny toons comic. Nothing in Torah bPeh can be considered scholarly nor intelectual. Just information overload devices such as asking a thousand question and misquoting text out of context to build a case that props up a pagan or Babylonian magical indoctrination. The Christians can take thing out of context too. Would you call their work scholarly or intellectual? Both rely on fallen Israel to fail the test of Devarim 13 day afetr day. If a man isn't a prophet and he isn't teaching real Torah, we are not supposed to follow them. These so called "Scholars" that we are forbidden by the rabbis who claim they are scjolars, to question. Gee that doesn't sound like a sham. The same that demonize Abraham by saying he was so crazy on the ideal of killing Iaasic that an angel had to cry out twice. The same scholars who will admit that G-d never said to light Shabbat candles, yet they require us to say before G-d Bless you for commanding us to light candles? Sad thing is the friars that we are, we actual do it. I don't know if this is a provoking as the millions of fallen Jews who became catholics and who eat bread and wine while asking G-d to consider it a human sacrfice of his first begotten son, but it sure must agravate Hashem. Do these intellectuals want us to provoke G-d? Maybe we can just call these sinful additions "chicken soup to lose your souls." As for the book "Chicken soup for the soul", I agree it most ceratianly is not a scholarly work. In fact I would say it is like every other donkey show leading Pinichio away from his task. For us it is to do the Torah that Moses gave us. Moses the go between who was hired by G-d to communicate what we needed to hear. Not the rabbis who take his simple communication and illegally add to it..

It is very possible that you never learned the deep works of the Rebbies from Chabad. I have. There is nothing in mussar, or in any works of philosophy that I have read, and I have read many, that match the awesome depth that the rebbies from Chabad revealed. Although, I am not a Chabad person, I have deep respect for their writings, and for the Chabad rabbis that spend much time to give explanation to these works. On the other hand, when I spent time with the other groups, I experienced a shallowness, that even in their Talmudic learning is only surface learning. PS, I teach in a non chasidic yeshiva, and I teach gemora in depth. I have been shocked to see what aish turns out as rabbis, near idiots who can hardly make a reading.

or maybe this is just one more instance of a rift rooted in other things

Wow, thanks to this article, this is the first I hear of organizations OTHER than Chabad or Aish in the field of outreach. Personally, I think that Chabad is a borderline between Judaism and not Judaism. It's the way they present the memory of the Rebbe in videos as this higher than anything person to be loved and devoted to. To me, in my opinion, that's the beginning of a cult. Also, I have personally witnessed a kiddush featuring, among other items on the table-hard liquor. This is why I cannot be Chabad. As for Aish, I haven't been to any of their meetings, but the site looks legit. It's true, the articles for the most part have something missing. But it's a good starting point on ones quest to know more. Remember, that's what outreach strives to do-to be a springboard on one's journey into Judaism. I have no problem with the Reform, Reconstructionist, or the Conservatives doing outreach. There are different approaches to diferent Jews.

When he kicks your sorry PC ass.Nothing like a good ass kicking to get the Jew to remember he is a Jew. It's like G-d's wake up call.

would have us believe in the many qualities of chabad rebbes. i find them heretical and objectionable from their inception he claims he is not a chabadnik, i am afraid however that his mind must be affected by at least a shot of their vodka. they are nothing but a bunch of racist deceiptful minim from day 1. no better in any way or shape than j for j who are at least more honest and without any of the multiple talk. Mr brackman is a typical deceiptful representative of this foreign harmful sect.

Yaakov, you are right. the problem with this sect of minim are many. a- they have their own non-jewish agenda whereas the centre of the agenda is the torah as delivered thru their false teachings. b- they are enemies of all other streams of judaism, let's not kid ourselves, orthodoxy included. c- their tactics include deceipt and spreading of falsehood against anything non chabad

" Not to mention the rampant "anti-Chabad" line that many of these kiruv organizations feed... " Not so David, not so. We are talking here of 2 distinct religions. They are not the same. Namely. judaism, and lubavich (no chochma, no beenah and no daat) What you are refering to as "rampant "anti-Chabad" line that many of these kiruv organizations feed... " is often long after earlier slander directed against all other authentic jewish organisation by lubavitch.

I am totally secular and regard Judaism as a civilization not a religion. I regard Tanach as part of the civilization not the essence. Among other things, I think that it is totally dishonest about the kingdom of Israel. However, rebbe worshipping cults are an abomination to this civilization. Shas is a pathetic example of what can go wrong in Judaism. Josh, what you wrote is something that I can respect even though I cannot accept it.

of bringing back Jews to togetherness,and I think it doesn't matter whether this fact is recognized or not.The important is the job is being done.The result is what really matters ,and that many have got inspired or awakened. But in another thought, what will help very much too in this process , is Israel starting to cut anything that is not Jewish in its country. Step by step,no more churches should exist here as well as no more mosques.Those non Jews living here ,should get used to the Jewishness of Israel,or eventually leave ,if they prefer.If they seek espirituality,our religion can provide to them what they need,even without them being Jews. Here ,only the various Jewish ways should be permited:from the more secular way to the more ortodox way,but only Jewish ways. I think this will be an inspiration for all Jews in the world and the fulfilment of our ideals.

I dont really know who started the kiruv movement, and it doesnt really matter. What matters is that Chabad has run off the tracks. When my great grandfather( a chabad shalich in New Jersey in 1910) was m'karev lost Jews, I dont think it was much a problem. In the seventies, I witness chabad taking secular Moracans in Brooklyn and recasting them into black caftaned hassidim. In that respect they were rescuing them from the edge of the abyss with one hand, and stealing someones heritage away with the other. It is their habit of playing for keeps. When the banner deifying a false messiah went up in 770 in the ninetys, they reached the tipping point . Now there is a mass neurosis taking root. The followers of the dead false messsiah are destined to be ripped away from the Jewish nation as were the Sabbateans, the Frankists the German Reform before them, and the Jews for Yoshke and New Age fools after them.

How can you respect something you don't accept? I do not respect things that I consider false, so I don't know how to understand the rubbish you wrote about respecting what you clearly disagree with. Disrespect it if you so chose. But don't BS me. Who died and made you the Messiah, that you talk down to people instead of stating what you really think. I dislike games that are often played by Baptist types where they try to befriend under an allusion. The sort of thinking that they can get a hook buried in a person as buddies and then topple that persons opinion. Its a setup. Chuckles, return to reality. Just say it. Able, Paquid, Charles, Kerin (Abpaqcharin). Don't try to bait me.

Does anyone else have a problem with Ynet having only a Chabad Rabbi as a commentator in the Jewish section? Does Chabad all of a sudden represent the Jewish world? I encourage others to check his organization and his board structure. Several of his board members are his relatives. Is this good governance? So the guy can throw up a fancy looking website but that doesn't change the fact that he runs a tiny poorly governed organization. What makes him so special that he should be the only commentator here?

Outreach why?, without a Yeshiva education and fluent Hebrew, they will only leave later on anyway or allow themselves to be religiously diluted later on because they lack any substantial knowledge. You want to increase the traditional Jewish religious population have more kids, alot of them, stop giving money to Israel an economy of what $200 billion and give to Yeshivas, offering every orthodox family free or highly subsidized Yeshiva tuitions.