Jewish Scene
New guide for the halachic and egalitarian minyan
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 10.02.08, 20:53
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29 Talkbacks for this article
1. don't go against thousands of years of tradition
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (02.10.08)
if people are going to stringently accept without question or dissent what rabbis say (like, for example, about jewishness only coming through the mother), then also the rabbinic injunction only counting men for a minyan should be accepted. otherwise you have arbitrary picking and choosing to fit each person according to their personal tastes. unless i've been unduly chastised for suggesting otherwise, jewish tradition is not up for vote. it is what it is and who does this kobi think he is to suggest otherwise?
2. Hashem doesn't care who leads the service
Wendy in Chicago   (02.10.08)
or who leads what prayers. It's such a shame that our approaches to Hashem are consumed with this nonsense. I'm sorry, Hashem!
3. Thanks for this resource! (end)
S ,   Israel   (02.10.08)
4. Finally!!
Chaya ,   Bat Yam, Israel   (02.10.08)
The Hareidim do not own Judaism!
5. Old Judaism
eddie ,   London UK   (02.10.08)
Since the rabbis at once stage enacted the separate women's section inthe 2nd temple, it means that previously it was mixed or egalitarian...
6. HASHEM DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN............
AVROHOM BILGREI ,   ZION   (02.10.08)
ABOUT A P.H.D. ! CAN WE HAVE ASTRAYS IN THE PEWS ?
7. It Will Only Create More Divisiveness Among Us
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (02.10.08)
Do we not already have enough splits among ourselves that we need yet another new-improved form of form of worship? This will just be another fly-by-night sect which will gain no support from serious, committed Jews who feel comfortable only in a classic Orthodox Minyan. The Reformers and Conservativers tried to alter and reshape Judaism to suit the "modern image", but failed. So will these people.
8. #7
Harry   (02.11.08)
I don't know that Reform and Conservative have failed, but I do know that most Israelis are secular because they do not like restrictions that force them to keep their wives and daughters in a subservient role similar to that under Islam. When we didn't educate our girls, that was one thing. Now that girls attend yeshiva, it is difficult to keep them from davening. Before you criticize on this issue, examine the halacha; don't condemn another generation of Israeli Jews to secularism. Don't throw D'vorah under the wheels of the bus so quickly. I will point out that Hannah's silent prayer viewed by Eli HaCohen is the source point for the Amidah. Give that some thought when you are contemplating how "forever" our minhagim and siddur have been around.
9. Roman Judaism...
Yitzchak ,   Yerushalyim, HaAretz   (02.10.08)
Roman Judaism is what Egalitarianism is it is bringing the teachings of Western Roman Catholic Culture of men and women praying together just as they doing in millions of Churches around the world this is the problem when Westernism is made an Idol something to go after and admire when Judaism itself is a more Holy expression of Worship when men and woman pray seperateley unlike the Goyim who pray and touch their wives and have no concept of ritual purity on any level. And I say this as one who was raised in an Italian Catholic family and is now converting to Orthodox Judaism that means that I accept that men and woman having different requirements as to what Halachah they keep and when.
10. very good whats next?
DAVID ,   FRANCE   (02.10.08)
mArry a terrorist? become a goy?
11. ??
moriah ,   sacramento USA   (02.11.08)
"the halachic and egalitarian minyan" Please point out specifically where halacha states 10 people or ten men and women .. please site your source -- which of the 613 is this one?
12. Dietary requirements' exemption
Ramy ,   Auckland   (02.11.08)
Please, PHD's and Rabbi scholars; Since you are changing all the rules of prayer maybe you should look at the kosher issue too. We pay $22 NZD for a number 18 kosher chicken. The same non kosher costs in suparmarkets $5-6 dollars. The meat cuts, imported frozen from Australia average the $60 a kilogram compared with $27 in supermarkets. We spend close to $300 a month on small quantities of kosher meat. The same quantity would amount to less than $100 in non kosher supermarket for prime NZ beef and poultry. Your PHD research and thesis should cover the aspects of investment property and religion. By offsetting the obligation of eating kosher one may be able to use the untaped equity on their family home for a deposit and the balance between the kosher and non kosher prices, to pay back the mortgage. So instead, for example, the Rabbis owning commercial properties, money made from the obscene charges for their kashrut services, make it 'kosher exempt' if the funds are used for better retirement. That way we will all comply with "Kol Israel Arevim ze la ze" :)
13. Men and women must pray together
Aviva ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (02.11.08)
Man-woman-man-woman, men & women must be mingled together! This is so that the gays do not become distracted during prayer.
14. What's The Fuss? Join a Reform "Minyan."
Dan Friedman ,   NYC USA   (02.11.08)
Heck, why did they go all that trouble creating a "Guide?" The Reform has had one in their pews for 100 years.
15. Halacha
HR ,   Dallas US   (02.11.08)
I was not aware that graduates of secular universities had the proper training to make serious halachic decisions.
16. #1
hart ,   new york   (02.11.08)
women dont make the minyan they can participate in it where halachically justified. dont jump to conclusions before you learn what you are talking about.
17. No way!
Avraham ,   Western Negev   (02.11.08)
You can NOT change halacha! G-D gave us his Holy Torah to keep & to follow. We, man, can not change it in any way, not even to please these radical women. Sorry ladies but G-Ds way is the only way!
18. one small oversight
yoni ,   jerusalem   (02.11.08)
One slight point they may have overlooked is that men must guard their eyes and cannot look at women especially not married women. the talmud poses the question in ketubot if you may look at a bride to praise her to her husband and halachicly it is not allowed even then! so surely women can do all the aforementioned but men will not be able to be there. sorry
19. Discomfort with the unfamiliar does not equal halakha
Rahel ,   Israel   (02.11.08)
It's about time, and kol ha-kavod to the writers. I understand why some people might feel uncomfortable with the issue. We are all afraid of what is unfamiliar and unknown. That's normal. But I do wish that we would distinguish between our personal comfort level and halakha, which is, after all, what the authors used as the basis for their book. (Those who deny that merely prove my point.)
20. It doesn't mean anything
Moti   (02.11.08)
A PhD, even in Judaic Studies, does not a halachic authority make. These folks may opine and partake in the historical discussion like anyone else; but there is not particular weight or authority to their opinions. This couple has been around for a while, and no rabbinic figures of substance recognize them as 'colleagues' in the realm of halacha. This is an academic exercise conducted by academicians, not halachic authorities. It should be treated as such.
21. Is the Orthodox of today really the new Conservative??
(02.11.08)
With all the challenges facing Orthodoxy that Ynet is choosing to report on, we have to ask ourselves the question of whether today's Orthodox Judaism is becoming Conservative Judaism. Reliance on minority opinion in redeciding halachic decisions, clear-cut violations of Mi d'Oraita prohibitions, and an emphasis on secular scholarship when rendering new halachic decisions are all accusations Orthodox love to level against the Conservative movement. It seems, however, that when faced with the same issues that have confronted the Conservative movement over the past 50 years, certain sections of the Orthodox community are employing the same methods used by the Conservatives. Please note that I am a Conservative Jew. While I personally question the integrity of some of the decisions made by the leadership in the American Conservative movement, for so-called 'Orthodox' to adopt the same methods they deride the Conservative movement for smacks of hypocrisy. I personally have nothing against Orthodoxy, but permitting egalitarian minyans and allowing members who are openly homosexual into the community isn't Orthodox, it's Conservative. You can't be homosexual and Orthodox. You can't have egalitarian minyans and be Orthodox. This is simple enough for even a Conservative Jew like me to understand. 'Orthodox' who try to halachically justify egalitarian minyans and homosexuality do nothing more than make a mockery of halachah. Please note that I don't care about if men, women and gays daaven together or not. Allowing it to happen and giving it halachic sanction, however, is an insult to halachah.
22. The regular loshon hara in talkbacks
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (02.11.08)
My guess sn none of all bashers have a clue of what real halacha has to do with what they practice on a daily basis Easier to shout " reform" than to take a deep study into talmud and sources to come with a seasoned argument as our sages said: one of the things that destroy the world is sanctinominous people how sad
23. To #9 Are you gay?
Gay ,   Jaffah   (02.11.08)
Are you really so disgusted to be near a woman? Maybe you should try men....
24. kol ishah
chava ,   yerushalayim   (02.12.08)
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the concept of Kol Ishah? If women want to do the things mentioned in the article, they should do them in a women's minyan, I think.
25. Halacha & kol isha
shira ,   usa   (02.12.08)
I've read several talkbacks stating this is against halacha. But I have yet to see anyone provide sources for their assertions. I'm very interested in learning about this and if anyone could provide the sources for women not being able to do these things and for kol isha, I would be grateful.
26. 25, Shira- Sources
Talkbacker for 21 ,   Withheld   (02.12.08)
Here is one of my sources: http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Parameters%20of%20Kol%20Isha.htm Like I said before, egalitarian minyanim are impossible from the framework of Orthodoxy. Providing halachic justifications for allowing openly homosexual individuals into the community is also impossible from the perspective of Orthodoxy. Allowing for both of these things requires reliance upon minority opinion and secular scholarship, both of which are criticisms Orthodoxy levels against Conservativism. Some people may just call such discussion lashon hara as a means to stifle discussion of the issue, but substantive criticism isn't lashon hara.
27. It's Tough Enough to Keep the Mitzvot...
Jonathan ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (02.12.08)
...without looking for things to fix which aren't even broken...
28. sources that deal with Kol b-Isha
m   (02.12.08)
this issue is far from being a clear cut prohibition, and is often looked from a bias outlook. check out http://www.jofa.org/social.php/ritual/dailypractic/kolishah for a good list of REALLY comprehensive look at the topic. I would especially recommand Berman, Saul article. looks at ALL the soures and does not hide a thing.
29. ko hakavod
amy ,   usa   (02.12.08)
if i see greater participation opportunities, such as reading from the torah, i am much more inclined to pursue a halachik lifestyle. i keep kosher now, but not being called up to the torah bothers me. all of israel has an obligation to read from the torah.
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