Opinion
Give gays kosher stamp
Asaf Wohl
Published: 21.02.08, 15:30
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80 Talkbacks for this article
1. Lesbianism
Yoni R. ,   Modiin, Israel   (02.21.08)
First of all, let's get things straight. To paraphrase a famous rabbi, the Torah did not prohibit "being" gay, rather "doing" gay (as far as men are concerned). So when we talk about homosexuality and Halacha, the main issue is homosexual relations. In terms of lesbianism (more accurately female homosexual relations), this is prohibited on a rabbinic level. So the statement that "there is no problem with lesbian women in the Halacha" is not accurate, since the Halacha includes both Torah-level and rabbinic laws.
2. Natural Law
Yoni R. ,   Modiin, Israel   (02.21.08)
A homosexual relationship cannot produce viable offspring. Therefore, it goes against a cardinal law of biology, which is survival of the fittest (or Darwinism, micro-evolution, etc.). Those who say that those theories are not in concert with Torah-true thought either misunderstand part of the Torah, science, or are in the minority.
3. Are you on crack???
Yael ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (02.21.08)
What's next? Shall we ask Rabbis to wear little speedos and dance beside you at your Gay Pride Parade? this isnt about social acceptance, this is about accepting wrong behavior. So after we accept homosexuality, lets accept murderers and rapists as well....
4. Pretty stupid article. Who is this idiot?
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (02.21.08)
5. Dear Asaf,
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (02.21.08)
If the Torah calls the homosexual act an "abomination", then there is nothing you can do to change that. If someone attempts to sugar-coat the problem then they are not being true to the Torah. It is as simple as that. And if the Torah condemns such an act as immoral, so must I. You are wrong inasmuch as the Halacha does not approve of or sanction lesbianism and such behavior is also condemned.
6. We should legalize all relationships
Mordechai   (02.21.08)
There is no limit to the amount or type of relationships people choose to enter. Polyamory is natural. Adults should be allowed to enter into marriage between anyone they want. If one woman wants to marry two men a woman and a man or 3 women she should be able to. Love is what is most important. We should also outlaw the racist prohibitions of intermarriage. I can think of nothing more pro peace than jewish girls marrying muslim men.
7. the last days
hanina   (02.21.08)
Hashem didn't anticipate women getting kinky with each other, that's why he didn't mention it. If you deviate from Hashem, then he isn't there to make sure you stay on the right path. Just because you think you can do whatever feels natural to do, doesn't mean it's natural.
8. buddy, what you want to do in your bed room is your problem,
(02.21.08)
don't porce me to give an approval
9. Kosher gays???
Nora ,   Tel Aviv   (02.21.08)
Please, do not use the word "Kosher" concerning gays, even if it is a journalist`s trick to attract attention. What is kosher and what is not is clearly written in the Bible. If you wish, you can pity those gays as being genetically deranged .
10. Wohl's Slightly Flawed Logic
Alex Nevilles ,   Chicago   (02.21.08)
Wohl argues that our forefathers had many wives and concubines, so let’s be consistent, and turn the issue of infidelity into a legitimate way of life. After all, we must not go against nature! Wohl also advocates homosexuality. And why limit this to married men having only other men as sexual partners. How about animals they might find attractive? Or their own children? Incest is common amongst animals and so is homosexuality and "we must not go against nature!" Trouble is, we are not animals, and Wohl is not G-d
11. Asaf Wohl may G-d Curse YOU !
ben shlomo ,   singapore   (02.21.08)
You dont mock us, with you HOMOSEXUAL KOSHER talk. There is limit you dont push you luck.I put a patent on you and your flesh an d blood. You are CURSED ! SO BE IT ! Ynet ; I am offended by the abuse of Kosher Laws and the TERMs ! DONT MOCK HASHEM : - O ben singapore
12. Let's get real
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (02.21.08)
People are people - regardless of their sexual preferances. I have several friends that are gay and none of them would choose to be gay. They can't help the way they were born. What they do, does not effect me in the slightest. Anymore than what straights do. Is there anyone here that is really effected by gays? Come on be honest here is anybody besides the gays involved? We have real issues to deal with. Let's deal with the problems and leave the gays alone.
13. Social Acceptance
David Feigenbaum ,   Netanya, Israel   (02.21.08)
"If we have religious slanderers, religious thieves, and thank God, even religious murderers, why can’t we also have religious homosexuals?" First define your tems. What you probably mean by "religious" is publicly practicing Halachac Judaism. Yes there are Jews like that. However, they don't ask that Judaism accept slander, thievery, and murder as acceptable lifestyles.
14.  lesbians
BUSH ,   USA   (02.21.08)
First of all Lesbianism is prohibited in Halacha. The Tur and Shulhan Aruch mention it. There is nothing new in this world. Jewish Torah, tradition and custom covers every person, every action, every thought. You cannot take one step or say one word of your empty life without the Torah telling you how, what, where, and when. Your opinions are worthless and meaningless to our Torah. Many before you had opinions that came and are gone now all forgotten about but the Torah still stands. If you cannot beat us then join us
15. Religious slanderers etc
BUSH ,   USA   (02.21.08)
Could be they have such people as you mention but then you might as well stop calling them religious instead of keeping the word religious which he obviously isn't and adding your negative terms. Thanks for putting gays in the same sentence as thieves murderers and slanderers. You proved everyones point that they are no good for the Torah world. That goes for RELIGIOUS athiests and "RELIGIOUS" Jews who don't keep kosher, Shabbat etc.
16. Give shrimp kosher stamp
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (02.21.08)
Lobster too, if we're giving out kosher stamps. I wanna be able to go into Mickey D's and order everything on the menu! One kosher double bacon cheeseburger!
17. #12 - Gee, Let's really get real...
Joe ,   Los Angeles, CA   (02.21.08)
To date, scientific studies have not proven what determines a person's sexual preferences. In other words, to state that people are born LGTBQ, that being LGTBQ is something that is a learned behavior, or is some combination of nature and nurture is to make a leap into the (as yet) unprovable. Regardless of this, however, a human being's free will is such a universal belief in almost all forms of Judaism to practically be dogmatic. If we believe that human beings have free will (as is understood even by Halacha), then we have to understand that a human being is more than just the sum of his parts and that the human will can supercede both biology and the conditioning provided by a person's environment. To say that Halacha should permit people to break Biblically mandated Mitzvot because a person was "born that way" is for Halacha to rule that the human being is devoid of free will and that Torah is subservient to human nature. I can't think of anything more destructive to the spirit of Torah than this...
18. not a halachic issue -- but bigotry
avramele   (02.21.08)
every prime minister except Begin were pork eaters yet the Rabbis bless them and court them. The walls of yeshivot are filled with the names of donors who are public "sinners". l'havdil, every haredi I know would give their seat on the bus to an elderly person without a thought as to a halachic litmus test....yet gays are shunned? this goes beyond halacha and the interpretation of a single pasook in Torah. It is about primal fear and loathing and maybe ignorance and self doubts about the nature of sexuality. Yes, the rabbis could solve the problem with a bit of intelligience and compassion. But hey, they haven't lifted too many fingers to solve the problems of agunot or the male monopolies on controlling the divorce process have they? Time to out the g'dolim with pink underwear! (It works with Republicans! in the US.)
19. Sounds like a reform plea to me!
Yosef ,   Jerusalem   (02.21.08)
First of all, when the knesset member said homosexuality causes earthquakes he was just saying what it clearly says in Gemara, so if you have a problem with that then take it up with with our sages from 2 thousand years ago. Second, it does not say that homosexual acts cause earthquakes, the act of homosexuality causes god to make the earth shake! its all very simple but when you try to force things on other people you tend not to see the obvious. Stop crying, do what you want in your room and i dont need to know about it. No one has the authority to go and change gods words in the torah if you dont want to live by the book dont try and force others to change their beliefs for you thats SELFISH but being that you indulge in a selfish act to begin with i guess you really dont care!
20. Illiteracy: Not A Virtue
David ,   Jerusalem   (02.21.08)
Illiteracy is not a virtue. While I frequently find the rhetoric the religious community uses when discussing homosexuals counter-productive I find the premise of this article, as well as the deep cultural disconnect required to write it, equally disturbing. While we should treat homosexuals with the basic human dignity all mankind was created with, there is no basis in Jewish thought to abolish (or creatively hide) a biblical prohibition. Nor is there any room for the morality de jour. We are the People of the Book, not the people of the Red Editing Pen. The precepts of Jewish tradition and culture are divinely mandated. If you don't want to participate in it that's your choice before G-d. But demanding the sages and adherents of our tradition throw it out because you would prefer follow another cultures subjective ethics? That's one of the most preposterous suggestions I've ever heard! Are you really that oblivious to reality?
21. Yoni: On Lesbianism
Take Two ,   Jerusalem   (02.21.08)
The notion that lesbianism is only a rabbinic prohibition is debatable at best. The talmud discusses it in sanhedrin and the rabbis considered it one of "the practices of the egyptians," which are expressely forbidden to the Jewish people in the bible. As a result, the rabbis weren't banning it themselves, but stating that it was already forbidden by the bible - and we have a premise from chagiga that "whatever the rabbis derive *from* the torah is also torah." This follows the epistemological premise of: that which is derived from a basic premise is also basic." As such, I submit to you, the prohibition against lesbianism isn't merely rabbinic - its scriptural.
22. #18, Stop already with the weapon of "bigotry"
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (02.21.08)
It is not bigotry to oppose homosexual behavior. That would be the case if there were no basis for oppostion. But, unnatural sexual behavior is something that should be frowned upon, even for logical secular reasons. Even moreso, when a person's fundamental belief system, as in Judaism, deems this behavior to be against its principles, one should oppose it. The GLBT movement has determined that if you use terminology over and over (like "bigot" and "homophobe"), people start to repeat it without intelligent thought. It works in advertising, it's working with Barack Obama ("Change"), and it works to some extent with homosexuality. In all cases it's just a sham, and a propaganda tool.
23. Asaf Wohl seems to be a first class ignoramus boor
(02.21.08)
"With the exception of very few people, the leaders of this community fail time and again in handling this question. The miserable anti-gay expressions uttered by Orthodox Knesset members are especially concerning, and in fact horrifying." IMMORALITY IS ALWAYS HORRIFYING! Orthodox, G-d fearing Jews, understand it well. Unfortunately, the world has become so more morally corrupt that they cannot see any immorality in the world any more. ASAF WOHL: Does the word IMMORALITY exist in your dictionary, or was it abolished together with your Judaism? "Or perhaps we should be ruling that the fact a man is only allowed to marry one woman contradicts natural laws?" What an ignoramus! There is no such law in the Torah. The Torah understands human nature, and permitted for a man to have more than one wife. The Rabbanim in previous generations stopped it for certain reasons and so did the government of Israel and most of the rest of the governments in the world. "After all, those who desecrate the Sabbath in public also deserve to be stoned, so why are you only angry at homosexuals?" Asaf: The Torah clearly states the difference. And there's a real big one for this one. Go check it out or have a little child explain it to you. And it certainly is not for the silly reason you're giving. "First, as far as I know there is no problem with lesbian women in the Halacha. " Another proof of your boorishness. Time for you to start learning the Torah and the Talmud. "The Jews are a creative people, so I am certain that rabbis will be able to find a patent that would make homosexuals kosher too." If G-d DESPISES THESE FILTHY PEOPLE, Jews loyal to G-d, shall forever and ever despise them too.
24. Kosher Stamp?-I thought rump-steak was treif.
Alan ,   SA   (02.22.08)
25. Halacha & Lesbianism
Mark ,   Lisbon, Portugal,   (02.21.08)
"First, as far as I know there is no problem with lesbian women in the Halacha." You are wrong. Why did you not do some research before you wrote your piece. Indeed if you know little or nothing about halacha, why should anyone be interested in what you write about it? Learn first.
26. #6Mordechai, hilarious post; #16Kyle, good simple comparison
M.M.   (02.21.08)
27. People let's deal with real problems
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (02.22.08)
Gay, straights, etc. are not the problem. We are under attack from Arabs, Europe and anti-semites from around the world. Rockets and mortars are hitting our cities daily. Suicide bombers, snipers, etc. Yet here we are worrying about a very minor issue. They aren't hurting me in anyway. Can anyone state the same about the above?
28. homosexuality, not gays, condemned by Bible; rabbis have...
dante ,   uk   (02.22.08)
the rabbis have nothing to do with the matter. it is not negotiable in normative Judaism. in some other religion, the issue may be open.
29. Guilty Complex
M.M.   (02.22.08)
The truth is that you know that you're not acting proper and that is what is bothering you a lot. It’s that you have a big yetzer hara and want approval from orthodox Jews and Rabbis in order to satisfy your guilty complex. There's a better and a straightforward solution to remove your guilty feelings. Repent and overpower your yetzer hara by subduing your evil inclination.
30. Oh gawd, more gay stuff
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (02.21.08)
I had two gay guys doing work around my house, and except for the fact that one of them drove me nuts humming Elton John songs all day long they not only did not show up wearing garter belts and feather boas, but they did a superb job with meticulous attention to every little detail. Maybe I’m prejudiced in their favor because when I told them they could use my kitchen to fix their lunches, they invited me to eat with them and I got some decent food for a change. Giving them a bread machine that I never used seems to have assured me of one loaf of exotic, home-made bread every week. Their work so impressed some of my non-gay friends, the guys have been lined up for jobs for the next 6 months. Most of all, I was spared the usual, double-entendre BS remarks that seem to be standard repertoire for straight plumbers, painters, etc. Now, however, that I’ve been enlightened by an article in Ynet that gays cause earthquakes, I can’t decide whether to call my friends and warn them of that fact and have those friends think that I’ve gone completely idiotic in my old age, or to just sit back, enjoy the bread, my improved surroundings, to keep looking forward to more good lunches when those 2 come back to do more work, or whether I should hope these particular “abominations” don’t have enough magic powers to create too much mischief with tectonic plates. (I’d question them about tornadoes, but those, according to some people, are no longer the fault of gays or Jooooooos, but of those illegal and, worst of all, Catholic aliens.) What is it with some people’s obsession with and losing every vestige of good sense over gays???? I’ll take a faithful, loving gay “arrangement” over some philandering, constantly-bickering-and-demeaning-each-other, straight couple any day. Whether or not anyone knows or wants to admit it, there are quite a few of both and maybe it is god’s displeasure with the latter that irritates him/her into shaking and stirring things up now and then. Considering that god’s nature is unknown and unknowable, when it comes to specifics with which this bunch or the other agrees or disagrees, the experts on what god does and does not “think” come out of the woodwork by the droves to explain it all from whatever angle needed. God must have a great sense of humor and a lot of patience to put up with all those self-appointed sages of whatever persuasion regaling the rest of us with their convenient truths du jour and to not blow the whole planet to kingdom come and start from scratch. After all, he/she supposedly only promised not to do that flood routine again. That leaves a whole slew of other options and none of us should feel too smug. That being said, gays should be thankful that their parents were straight or they wouldn’t be here.
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