What happened to our government is the right question. What happened to our intellectual elite is another good question. Instead of this constant shedding of tears for our enemies, instead of this steady stream of Israel-bashing, instead of this incessant guilt, self-rightousness, & self-doubt, why don't you question the steady deterioration of our strategic position? Why don't you question the assumptions that have led us to the mess we are in? You're asking the wrong questions.

I was pretty much with you, until just before the end, when you just HAD to shove the settlements issue. And why? Because your leftist psyche forbids you to write any editorial without slamming Israel for the "occupation" or the settlers. Not that I'm this rightist myself, but your political spin here disgusts me. Meir, couldn't you just stick to the Golani story? You had a valid point there, but it had NOTHING to do with settlements. Can't you write anything that's free of your leftist political agenda?

what is your problem as a writer sitting back and reading articles of others and then hearing rumors then worst of all judgin the armies training techs. what is wrong with people nowadays? i have friends in golani they do their job well. whats wrong is people like you who say stupid things and make dumb judgement calls shut up and do your job not the armies

Its because you spend too much capital training them to evict Jews. You also trained them to clobber Jews ala Amona. These two events are coming back to bite you in the ass. Seeing that the new Israel enjoys every g-d damn perversion out there. I tell you..enjoy it for you have sown the seeds of your own demise. Have a nice day ..just be sure you are safe on the way to your pad in NYC etc.

The "golden calf" is that some jews hold arab propaganda and world sentiment to a higher regard than their fellow jews. THAT is the transgression we should be worried about.

Sorry, but he was perfectly right to attack settlements semi-directly. Soldiers are not police, but they have become police of settler-highways, of caravans put up by mitnahalim without even governmnet authority. When the army became "the private security of the settler movement", their entire training changed over the decades, their attitudes changed, their understanding changes from one of a fighting force to defend israel from attackers to often one of attacking rock-throwers, or armed men who are vastly different in ability and action to those of a well trained group (as we found out when hezbollah finally struck), you expect him to not give the blame as he sees it? All our failures are post 67. All our biggest success are pre-67. I'm not saying there was no justification in maintaining some land, I think there are. But we have to face reality about how our army has degraded in to a highly armed police force. IT's a fact, and it's highly connected to the settlements. If there were no settlements there would've just been a few patrol vehicles but 95% of the soldiers would not have been there but in israel training for a war with an armed force the likes of hezbollah. For you to deny this is just to close your eyes. I know people say "well why can't they still train for such a war? Of course they can!" but reality showed that this assumption simply doesn't hold. I like to think that way too, but we were shown how much the army has degraded, and it's not for random reasons, it's for very real reasons of what is required of the army and how it's required to use and train it's soldiers. You have a viewpoint, but if it hasn't held in reality, you need to update and tweak it Tahl. Simply attacking the writer, A FORMER GOLANI, as a leftist and ignoring the reality that regardless of the viewpoint that you can train them as soldiers but use them as guards, that viewpoint has simply not proven to be the case. You might disagree, but again, we have a cast study - The IDF all the way until the Lebanon war 2006.

ask MOFAZ - he left us with all this s...t and c..p. he ruined the army. he did nothing and we still see him smiling in the knesset - complaining and receiving a salary.

Abuse of new recruits, particularly at elite units, shows us time and again that in contradiction to what we saw in the last war the IDF is not stagnating, but rather, keeps on improving. At least in that area we display fresh thinking and exhibit a sense of originality and creativity. What?

....and can only say that today's units are much better than when I was in. (incidently in 1981 we had to go into a tent with tear gas to test our functioning with gas masks, so I do not know what army or year Meir was in) today the units are better equiped, just as motivated and better trained, way to go Tzahal. Why do all the ole geezers my age think that we were so much better in Milchemet Levanon 1.0, we weren't

sorry, but i completely disagree with this analysis it is the philosophy of "we are tired of winning wars" shared by Rabin, Peres, Barak, and Olmert which has led the elite IDF units to be equiped with tear gas.

Since you brought up Torah I am forced to ask you the following: "Do you not know the difference between a sin and an obligation? The one sin commited during the golden calf was the sin of doing what HaShem told us NOT to do. What selfhating Jews like you are doing is what the people did during the golden calf: they had no patience they were sick and tired of waiting for Moshe. Faith dear Meir and Love will help you.

Sorry pal. Tear gas is a very handy item for any operational unit, particularly one that may have an intelligence recovery mission. I have carried various forms of tear gas in the military and in law enforcement intelligence operations raid missions. It's nifty stuff for room entry preping. Deadly force is not always the single way towards success of a mision. have a cigar and a drink pard, you are just getting old like me and the rest of us.

The Israeli army under the Olmert regime, couldn't fight it's way out of a paper bag, let alone a war against it's enemies. Israel just lost in Gaza and it lost in Lebanon... It's hardly surprising Kadima wants to hand Israel to the Arabs on a silver platter. When will the fighting spirit of the Israelis of yesteryear be resurrected? If it doesn't happen, will Israel, or any Jew in the diaspora survive?

i think if evry thing is okey it means that the setleres the israili and the goverment is in secure ,no one will aske questiones no wrong nor right question .. but i want to tell one advice i hear it from my mother long away when i was a child .. it is when you step the first step it must be stable then you must know where to go .... and after that you can aske questiones ..

Functioning without the gas masks.Better trained? Not sure.Motivated?No.I'm one of the old geezers and we were better.Sad reality.

it is not on a silver platter .. may the israili took it like that but sure they will not give it as they took it .. we no that it is on a blood platter . blood is not worthless as many think about the palastinian blood and it is worth than silver but not than the land ... do you think israili blood is worth than the land .. i think it is //

Mr. Shalev. Stop with the settlements. Haven't you yet realized that the issue is not the creation of Palestine - it is the destruction of Israel. Just last week Abbas proudly declared that he was proud to have fired the first shot in the "resistance" in 1965! TWO YEARS BEFORE THE "OCCUPATION!!! Mr. Shalev they are after you too-not just the 'settlers'!

it is about abbass and you trust him /that he feel proudly // but i know he said that becouse his hand is on his neck .he is afraid to be sluphered not from israil .but from his people he is not honest not to israil but also to his people // and israil leader is not better than him they are runing after the cowboy but sure the boy was dead in gaza or in sderot but the cow still alive ..sad and bad

You ramble on and on about how Golani supposedly turned into a settler-police, but what may have been true 10-15 years ago is no longer true today. The reality today is that Israel has withdrawn from all of Gaza, taking out all of the settlements in Gush Katif. Israel also took out quite a few problematic settlements in the West Bank and Gush Etzion, such as Homesh or Amona. I'm not saying this is enough, it's not, but implying that "95% of the soldiers" are protecting the exisiting settlements, is disinformation and demagoguery. Indeed many soldiers are stationed in the West Bank today, but most of them do not protect settlers, but rather, perform critical tasks such as protecting ALL of Israel from Palestinian infiltrators, carrying out special undercover operations in Palestinian towns, and imposing sieges if necessary. As for "All our failures are post 67. All our biggest success are pre-67" - another demagoguery. While the 67 war was a complete success, it was a one-time-thing. And I wonder what you'd make of the stealing of the Egyptian radar, the turning point of the Yom Kippur war, the peace with Egypt borne from the outcome of that war, the Iraqi nuclear plant, the destroying of the Syrian Air force in the first Lebanon war, the recent Syrian bombing, plus countless other successes. You'd never know how many small successes the IDF has had, averting bombings which could have cost the lives of so many people. Finally, the reasons for the failures in the last war in Lebanon, had nothing to do with the settlements. Rather, they were the result of a leadership which was blind to the danger (for years prior to this war) and extremely indecisive (during the war). Indeed the army had its share of the blame, but the improper training and readiness was due to bad commanders, low budget, and the simple fact that it was busy stopping Palestinian terror all this time (which came, incidentally, mostly AFTER Israel's major withdrawals). Again, I'm not a rightist myself, but spinning everything to be the fault of the settlements and the "occupation" annoys me. And for doing that, I can certainly call Meir Shalev (as well as yourself) a blind leftist. Even if he served in Golani.

I seee, so when did the army become the police force to REMOVE settlers ? betcha cant answer THAT.. we lost in Lebanon because the army spent a year training to kick out settlers.. so you now go and blame the settlers? If there was NO settlements, they would be firing rockets at ALL of Israel and we'd see the west bank like gaza.. Sorry say what.. pre '67 success ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sir, your either blind or ignorant.. please pick up a copy of Israel history.. Say.. jordainian shelling ? naw.. egyptian shelling ? naw... fadayeen ? naw Syrian shelling ? naw.. Bombings ? shootings ? stone throwings ? say what.. never heard of it pre 67? Sorry.. your one track minded in your blame of settlers.. this country was alot less safe pre '67.. this country was alot safer pre oslo.. this country was alot safer pre lebanon withdrawl.. this country was alot safer pre 2005 gaza chicken run..

So what you were in golani.. the article makes no sense.. ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. Where does it say they were "equipped" ? you merely said they "hurled several tear gas grenades into the shower" Are you trying to tell me that back when you were around, a mifaked couldent get his hands on a tear gas gernade ? are you nuts ? Whered u guys get the stun gernades ? were all golani recruits issued stun gernades ? Your logic and details dont add up meir... Good question as well... why WOULD golani be using tear gas in combat ? Why WOULD golani not be throwing frag gernades at the enemy in combat ? Good question.. perhaps because it was the left that turned the army into the police.. was it not ? Who taught the army to cower ? to throw tear gas at rioters instead of shooting them down? The left!! You hear no complaints from the right and the settlers abouyt shooting terrorists dead! kol hakavod! buy you a beer too!

For a long time, "settlers" took care of themselves and defended themselves quite well. Even kept things quiet with the arabs. Then the government sent in the army, tied the hands of the settlers to defend themselves, and incredibly also tied the hands of the army. Soldiers time and again are frustrated by the stupid guidelines they have to follow and that in fact encourage attacks by arabs and their Euro-trash co-operaters. At the very least you're ignorant or maybe even totally dishonest.

Homesh is in judea and amona is in binyamin.. nothing to do with gush etzion. The army is still in chomesh.. they have a base there.. ive been there since the expulsion and so were tens of thousands more and they will tell you so. The army is in choesh because a arab with a rocket launcher could hit all of israel mainland from there.. The lousy excuse of "isolated settlements" is nothing but a leftist invention.. There are no settlements in jenin, qalqilya, nablus, jericho, betlehem, beit jallah... and on and on and on.. but the army is still there.... so who exactly are they protecting? Leftists in tel aviv! jeez... Tell us again why the army is in gaza is there are no settlements there #7?

#22 We partially agree. My 95% figure was to make a point, not literal. I did not state we had no successes after 67, but that our big failures were since then. Entebbe itself was after 67 so I never meant it's been nothing but failures otherwise there'd be no Israel by now! But the war of indepedence, sinai, the 67 war, these were the victories that created Israel and its deterence. Sharon when he was PM expressed shock at how much the army had degraded. But I think that the points about the army, including the chief of staff himself, are the result of the failures in the army to maintain itself for a long time, not simply a demonstration of it having, as if by chance, being led by someone not fit for that position. Remember the last few leaders and politicians who also failed tended to include many high officials. Who was in the gov? Ben Eliezer - last commander of the west bank before Oslo. Mofaz who seemed to shy away from involvement, others who are more well known. It was a failure by all levels of Israeli military society from the past 2-3 decades! Of course, Dayan failed in 73 was from the old generation, but I still think there's a strong trend that roots the down spiral in the post-67 of soldiers with land-maintaining of non-friendlies. as for #23 Elchonon - The gaza and West bank story is inaccurate. You are talking from TODAYS perspective. You cannot project 1967 to 2007/8. I was talking about the trend SINCE THEN. I did not say you can simply leave and things will be good. I never said that. But you are taking what I said as a projection of what I meant in decades ago and you project it as if I meant "if this happens tomorrow". I never said any such thing, don't put words in my mouth. Obviously if we left the west bank tomorrow we'll be seeing attacks from there. I would never say/think otherwise. Telling me to read Israeli history is a typical unimpressive assult. Of course there were attacks before. But today Israel is scared that in a few months Tel aviv will get attacked. We have hezbollah in the north, west bank can again go in fire, gaza shooting rockets at Ashkelon and probably within a period nearer to Ashdod, it's not exactly better today, or 15 years ago when suicide bombers first hit, or 20 years ago when the intifada began, or 17 years ago with scuds falling or when attacks came from Lebanon regularly for northen communities or in the yom kippur war, or the post 67 war of Attrition. Let me know when exactly it was so good. Today may be the low point, but thats not simply because of withdrawals but because of erosion of our military abilities and secret services. In any case my mind is not "one track".. you make a lot of assumptions for someone who throws out a few words like "fadayeen" as if to impress that there were problems before 67, while completely missing the point that I made and thats that in my view the IDF was far superior (especially considering it's technological backwardness compared to today) to todays, and I still think a key cause (note I didn't say ONLY CAUSE so don't put words in my mouth) is the settlers who thanks to their construction created a military police mentality and focus of planning & training. Now let me repeat so you get it through your personal attacks on me: I did not say/mean there were no problems then, I did not say/mean we've had no successes since, I did not say/mean that the IDF would be great now if tomorrow all settlers left or israel left. I did not say any of those things so stop speaking for me and then responding to the point you just made while speaking for me. cut back on assumptions of people and putting words in mouths P.S. Lebanon was getting harder and harder to patrol and our allies of the SLA were collapsing more every year. Your assumptions that it could go on forever and ever also show arrogance

I'm not totally dishonest, nor ignorant. My family (as I'm too young to have lived at that time myself) use to regularly go to eat in bethlehem, hebron in the mid 70's. Buy humous etc. This wasn't because they were part of leftist movements, but because it was simply safe enough back then to go visit. Do you know when they had to stop going? Not long after the settlement "enterprise" began. The only real sympathy at first was for Hebron Jews as quite a few were from the original families who fled/were murdered in 1929. But for the most part this became a national goal and the locals, how shall we say? Did not look kindly on it. I don't see how reflecting on these things is dishonest? I won't lie that I don't sympathize with the settlers for many reasons, for example when I lived in Beer Sheva we had constant water cuts, electricty cuts while many settlements were called "a piece of heaven" with brand new water & electric works - and not because they paid more for it but because it was subsidized to live in the shtachiim. I won't lie that the free tax situation annoyed me (why free tax? Are they outside of Israel's borders?) But It's obvious that they came in to create "greater Israel". The Israeli gov couldn't just do nothing while it's people go around, outside of the law, and do what they want. When a beduin builds some houses in the Negev far away from anyone else, nobody complains if it's knocked down if it was illegal (in fact if it's illegal, I say knock it down), but if it's settlers? What no responsibility? No judicial system? No lands authority? So if I get a gang of friends and we build a random village just for us in the negev thats ok? no need for law? Of course the army had to intervene. This was a police/military matter OUTSIDE of Israel's official authority (as Israel has never annexed the west bank) and so the army needed to be used which ties in with my other points. Again, I don't see how reflecting is "at least" ignorant or "maybe totally dishonest". I do note however that due to space constraints I cannot write out a massive essay to explain what I mean properly and so it comes out sounding different than how I think about it... but what the heck i'll post this anyway.

Sure I can project.. they had no guns till rabin gave them! the first intifada was fought with rocks and knifes so yes things were safer.. to a extent.. and now we gave them guns so things are worse. Egypt was shelling border gaza border towns BEFORE '67... How can YOU predict that if we leave then Israel will be fine? 95% figure to make a point ? no sir thats not how we do things in a discusion about MY neck..as you say your in london UK. We are talkin facts here.. dont make up numbers to make a point or I wont even bother opening your talkbacks. Sorry your way off track man.. I dont see the army protecting settlers even 2% Kiryat arba is guarded by civillian's.. Chevron is guarded by the army yes.. on avrage of about 15 soldiers guard the entire chevron... Which included 2 army bases and the fact that the army needs to guard the PA border and other such stuff. So please explain this whole "settler policing" bit to me.. You mean putting a soldier on guard duty makes him a settler cop? as if the army does not stick soldiers on guard duty at the kirya in tel aviv? Sorry man you havent a clue how things work.. The army sux crap because soldiers have no moral, because soldiers are scared to fire because they'd get thrown in jail, because soldiers are forbidden to fire in a civillian population.. Because we have carcases while the ISM who do everything to botch the army's operation's.. machshom watch and a whole slew of other far left groups.. Who guess what ? yep they riot in billin or whatever forcing the army to police them.. thats right the arabs, leftists, anarchists etc.. who damage the fence etc.. force the army to police them.. Gee and you blame the settlers ?

With Ashkelon under missile attack, the author clearly suffers a severe case of cognitive dissonance. With an IDF leadership that refuses to defend Israel without the approval of lawyers, and increasing attacks from a Gaza that was evacuated, he author is living in a dream world from the past. Wake up Mr. Shalev, your enemy considers Tel Aviv occupied also. More here.