morallity not the opposit

as the nazis started to register homosexuals of being homosexual in other countries but Germany as well to... what might have happened next after the Jews. Sure Guttmann is right, but the fact that homosexuals (not those who were considered homosexuals but were actually political opponents or other 'trouble makes') were being deprived of their freedom because of who they were. Just like Jews. Just like Sinti. Just like Roma and just like mentally and physically handicapped people. That alone deserves a monument. All the rest should be taught clearly in schools and museums.

That's the extend of the Nazi Holocaust against gays? I never heard any numbers but I must admit I thought they were many more.

6 million were Jews and 6 million were dissidents, gypies, homosexuals, mentally ill, and any other human beings that the Germans decided to murder! Keeping proportions would mean remembering all of them and not turning the Holocaust into an exclusively Jewish business!

Maybe an effective therapy?

so-called "historian". Suffering is suffering, no mater who or for what. I feel ashamed.

All proportions kept: * Gypsies weren't gased upon arrival at the camp, neither were the homosexuals or the mentally ill, or the dissidents; this was exclusive to Jews * Pre-teen children certainly weren't caught for extermination because they had one grandparent who was a homosexual or a dissident * Since we're on the subject of dissidents, communists aren't born communist (or if they are, I wish at least one communist party in the world would admit to that kind of enlistment) * Jews were the only ones to be kept away from the others in the camps Let's just hope that, your terrific grasp of history set aside, your usage of the word "business" was just a unfortunate slip of the tongue.

so, everything erects except mine?

Most of the early Nazis were homosexual, and Hitler moved in a largely homosexual milieu for years. Names such as Roehm, Hess, dietrich and the entire leadership of the SA are hardly to be ignored. the Night of the long knives was a civil war between homosexuals .

It doesn't matter who they were, they suffered and even died at the hands of the brutal Nazi regime. The Memorial itself, is way too discreet, and one could easily walk past it and not notice it. It needs to be somewhat more A big grey block that one person at a time can only look into is not sufficient. Perhaps they could have put a wing in the Holocaust museum regarding the deaths of these individuals. That would be better.

So, the thought that suffering from being killed is not much different from Jewish suffering - is a scandal? wow.

... maybe this "victim envy" is the true scandal. I would have thought that a senior Yad Vashem member (probably a historian?) should have known better. I think at the core of the holocaust lies the utterly cruelty and the denial of humanity to human beings –out of a strong eliminatory antisemitism and other racist and psychopathological "Herrenmenschen"-motivations. Opposite the Brandenburg gate, close to the new U.S. embassy and the Holocaust memorial – there is a park with a lot of trees and small ways for walking. I think a good place for several smaller memorials for homosexuals, Sinti & Roma (so called "Gypsies"), mentally ill and handicaped persons, so called "dissocial elements" etc. who were systematically murdered by the Nazis... But "victim envy" shows that even in remembrance there are some bizarre and distorted ways...

The persecution and systematic destruction of any people is an abomination. I spend too much of my time visiting walls of memorial visiting my family across Europe. These walls with their names do not tell me if the Jews remembered their were or were not heterosexual or homosexual. Let's take a step back and remember everybody effected. Yad Vashem the lesson is 'Lest we forget'...

You have no standing to challenge whose suffering other people deign to commemorate or how. Mind your business.

And he never heard about the French gays deported, tortured and murdered in the KZ's ? Maybe he doesn't read french or look at docs movies.. The same in other countries and they were not SS nor Germans ! If that guy is an historian, let me laugh or .. cry !!

along with 6,000 000 jews also 500,000 gay men were also murdered by the Nazis for the same reason, they were considered different and not part of the Nazi grand plan. Yet Yad Vashem chooses to ignore this fact .They should be ashamed of themselves. Surely one of the biggest lessons from the hollocaust should be respect and tollernce and acceptance. However it would appear that Yad Vashem is selective in its remberance.

One might wonder if Israel Guttman would be so critical if the memorial was for the Gypsies or other "Untermenschen" murdered by the Nazis. The fact is that Jews were the whipping boys of the time today the Gay Community is the victim. What is disgusting is that the "victims" have now become the "persecutors" and this is in the land where people are supposed to be tolerant. Actually, a memorial to ANY victim of the Holocaust is appropriate no matter where it stands as it reminds us of one of the basic principles of the Jewish People and Israel - NEVER AGAIN! The views of Israel Guttman are also those of many narrow minded people, many of whom post homophobic and racist views on YnetNews and other publications. They should remember that their form of racism and bias is no different than that of the Nazis, the Moselys, the Le Penns, the David Irvings and many others then and today all over the world, regarding Jews. Hatred based on prejudice against a group because of race, colour, religion or sexual orientation is the real "abomination"! If we don't agree on that point why do we condemn Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and the Arab Fundamentalists?

The Torah does not agree to Homosexuality but it's no harm to make a memorial to these victims and show the world what the Nazis did and what the Nazis are which is the same as Iran is doing today, killing innocent victims.

Why can't they accept that out of the millions of people that were murdered in the Holocaust, some were gay and some were gypsies, not everyone was a Jew. It's dispicable that because they were not Jews they seem to want to discount them and their memory. And what makes it all the more worse is that it comes from a senior member of Yad Vashem. He should be utterly ashamed of himself.

This guy need to wear a pink and blue triangles, in his forhead in every meeting at Yad Vashem. SHAME ON HIM

You represent the voice of reason and knowledge among these talkbacks. As to Hitler and the homosexuals, I think it's safe to say that he always disliked them but as long as he needed them (the circle around Ernst Rhoem) he tolerated them, When Rhoem and his friends in the SA became a political threat ,Hitler reacted with his usual reckless brutality. He used their openly homosexual lifestyle to scandalize them and cover up that he cold-blooded murdered till now political companions. Yes Hitler disliked homosexuals but in Nazi Germany you were arrested only if you flaunted your orientation or committed acts of public indecency. If you remained in the "closet", you were pretty safe.

I looked up Yad Vashem, and on their website it talks about fighting racism and prejudice. What's the matter - that the Nazi's only got around to murdering perhaps 10000 gays in the camps? Or is it that the Israeli right win ultra orthodox, who make comments like " Homosexuality is like Bird flue", implying it ought to be wiped out. While Israel does recognize gay marriages performed elsewhere, in the US we have the Orthodox Jewish community acting as crazy as the right wing Christians, who see their lies and denigration of our gay communities being exposed for what they really are, Hatred in the name of God. And I might add that I think that not only did 6 million Jews die, including btw most likely people who were my 2nd or 3rd cousins - siblings of my grandparents who never left western Europe - but also perhaps 5 million of other groups,eg the Simi and Roma people as well. So get your head together there in Israel. Germany's gays deserve a monument to the Nazi's maniacs, as well as all the other victims. And if it is the Torah that is the issue, well now you know why I hardly ever go to temple any more, why one of my kids is very liberal christian Jewish (Universalist - Unitarian church), and another is an atheist. Isn't it so interesting how people are blinded by religion, especially the people who should welcome and revere all people who suffered during WWII.