Of course it's an unfair system- I understand that perfectly well as someone currently within this process here in Israel- but a 'secular conversion' may create more problems than the ones it wishes to solve by trying to bring 'both sides together' on this issue. There have been converts since the era of the Tanakh, have we all forgetten this? Don't water down the conversion process, but help get rid of the corruption, polictics, and abuse that are within this system here in Israel, something that can be found in many other places, from the Knesset to healthcare systems here. Sad how few commentators here seem to have knowledge and decency.....

lunatic with no understanding of judaism. ask him what judaism is exactly and he will probably tell you a culture or traditional ritualistic involvment that has no meaning or purpose. In short Yair is an unfortunate product of secular Israel. His parents deprived him of a real Jewish education, he never got the chance to understand the basis and foundation of Judaism and now advocated his own limited view. Please keep your ranting about your new religion of secularism to yourself !!

Einstein was no expert on biology nor on Judaism. having had no Jewish education this is not surprising. Judaism has its own internal rules as to who are its spokepeople. You certainly do not fit into that category. nor does the writer of the article.

Do not let those who are corrupt add you to their victims. You actually will have an easier time going via a reputable Haredi Beit Din. The many converts I know all agree that this is the most user-friendly option, despite all the squawking of the frauds.

That is so racist . Are you saying you are better than others?how arrogant .....I don't think that's very smart or jewish ......

In the town where I lived in the US before I made aliyah, there were a couple of families who were members of a Reform temple and in these families just about nobody was halachically Jewish for 3-4 generations already. The great-grandfathers were born Jewish and they married women who were Reform converts. Their sons married women who did not have any conversion, not even Reform. But the Reform movement considers their kids Jewish, through their fathers whose mothers had Reform conversions. Afterwards, these grandchildren of the Jewish-born grandfathers married out. This generation practices nothing Jewish, but some of them will say that they're Jewish--through their Jewish born great-grandfathers. What a mess. This is the damage that Reform conversions do. And Reform conversions are similar to the "secular conversions" written about here. They are worth nothing. Judaism is Torah and mitzvot, and if you do not believe in the Torah and don't observe the mitzvot, then you don't believe in Judaism.

You are WRONG . Yair received an ORTHODOX education .

Not in her # 10

this is the most common sense I have read on these pages in a long long time. You are 100% correct.... And you put it in such a way that Gentiles will not feel insulted by your comments. There is no reason to convert if you are a good guy. However, I think the biggest issue here is not conversion to Judaism but being able to become an Israeli citizen. Thats where the biggest bone of contention lies. With many people wanting to become citizens and not being able to unless they convert. This causes 2 issues. people convertinbg for the wrong reasons and leaving the religion once they are naturalized. The other issue is that it gives the rest of the world to claim that even though you are a democracy, you are ruled by the religious and are prone to 'crazies' (Not my words)

A secular conversion means taking a secular person and converting him or her to be secular. Does this make sense?

"If I am born a jew then whatever garbage I spout must be jewish" Since Judaisn is not a belief system- you do not believe since Judaism has no rules to follow- you reject rules since Judaism is not popular- and you only spout popular slogans I must conclude that the only Judaism left that still applies to you as the fact that your family is Jewish. So your Judaism is merely due to race.

Quote "Only the creation of a wide-ranged national movement, supporting a free Judaism can subdue the fears of “national segmentation.” For this reason, all educational institutions dealing with Jewish secular culture should not cooperate with strict or lenient orthodoxy" So it has to be a wide national movement that accepts all forms of judaism except for the orthodox??? Boychk that is very open arms. Hey I am in this situation of being Goy due to my father marrying my catholic mother. Baruch H! He know what he is doing. I will not bow down to reform or conservative presure to have one of their convertions done by their Rabbis. I love them and respect them but that is not halacha. Why do I have to be a Goy an why cant my father pass his jewishness to me? Just think of Ishmael and Esau. There is the answer. At the end we will be if I can convert, all converts. After the only jew by birth woman that was married to one of the 12 brothers was Dina's daughter (Yosef's wife). All the descendants of Avraham, all with the exception of Menashe and Ephraim are converts descendants.

or was he seduced?

If you believe in Jesus ans Mary and follow the teachings of Pope Julius the II ( the first gay Catholic Jewish Pope) you become a kosher Jew like myself. You are a Jew if you believe in Christ Jesus. We are spiritual Jews not Pharesse Jews.

EASILY NOTICE IT EVERYWHERE. MY WIFE CONVERTED (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE) AFTER SHE WAS ALREADY MARRIED TO ME AND IN THE JEWISH SCHOOL I'VE STUDIED AND NOW OUR DAUGHTER DOES, WICH BY THE WAY IS ASSISTED RELIGIOUSLY BY CHABAD I ESTIMATE ABOUT 50% OF MIXED MARRIAGES BUT THE ISSUE IS THAT CONVERTED, OR MAYBE MOSTLY NOT, I GET ALONG WITH LOTS OF GOYIM "NATURALIZED " JEWISH. IT'S TRUE THAT IT'S SOMETHING I DON'T CONSIDER IF THE PERSON REMAINS A CATHOLIC (BRAZILIAN CASE). ON THE OTHER HAND I ALSO HAD BEEN INTOUCH, HORRIFIED, WITH PREJUDICIAL ANTISEMITIC CONVERTS......SO I MEAN THE WORTH IT IS AND THE "DE FACTO" VERY POSITIVE SITUATION OF THE JEWISH NATURALIZED PEOPLE IN ISRAEL. I CONSIDER MY WIFE NATURALIZED JEWISH....SO LINKED KIND AND LOYAL SHE REMAINS TO HER ORIGINAL FAMILY BUT AT THE SAME TIME CAN'T STAND ANYTHING CHRISTIAN (THAT'S A PROBLEM OF HERS ) AND PUSHES ME AND OUR DAUGHTER TOGETHER WITH HER TO EVERY JEWISH EXPERIENCE, RELIGIOUS OR SECULAR. THAT'S WHAT I THINK THAT HAPENS TO GOYIM THAT FALL IN LOVE WITH JEWISH ISRAEL, THEY( AND WE) NEED A PROCESS OF.JEWIH NATURALIZATION, NOT ISRAELI ONE, AND IT OBVIOUSLY WOULD EXCLUDE PRACTICING ANOTHER RELIGION. LAST: IM GETTING THE PORTUGUESE DOUBLE NATIONALITY FOR THEM BUT IN MY CASE, AS HUSBAND OF THE PORTUGUESE TO BE NATIONAL, WOULD REST ONLY THE NATURALIZATION PROCESS IF I WISHED IT, AND THIS WOULD REQUIRE STRONG PROVEN LINKS TO PORTUGUESE COMUNITY AND CULTURE, NOT JUST MY WEDDING. IN OUR JEWISH CASE COULD BE THE SAME AND I INSIST THIS WOULD NATURALLY DISCARD OTHER RELIGIOUS PRACTICES AS OUR RELIGION IS THE CORE ISSUE OF OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY "I AM YOUR LORD WHO TOOK YOU AWAY FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT..." HE ALREADY REVEALS HIMSELF TO US AS THRE FORMER OF A NATION (JEWISH)..OUR BIBLICAL LIBERATION FROM SLAVERY IN EGIPT WAS NOT ABOUT GRTTING REGISTERED JOBS WITH REGULAR WAGES BUT THE RISE OF A FREE NATIONAL PEOPLE, SO WE CAN'T IGNORE JEWISH FAITH AS FOUNDATION OF OUR NATIONALJEWISHIDENTITY NOR OUR NATIONALJEWISHIDENTITY AS FOUMDATION OF OUR FAITH. LET'S GIVE THE FORMER IT'S APROPRIATE ROLE

The accident of birth does not make someone different or special and does not and should not provide the title of gatekeeper.

I know from experience that those who choose to become Jewish typically are more knowledgeable about their adopted religion,and tend to be more genuine participants in the rituals, obligations and tenets of our tradition.

What has this [ my # 40 ] to do with conversion ?

And a "rav" writing Shabbat , are you knowing something about religion ?

Ok, in this case, maybe a little bit more stupid. "The secular public must be aware that the mutual interest between the ultra-Orthodox and the national religious is to prevent Jewish secularism from increasing in Israel and to render Judaism only through a religious, Orthodox definition." On a level of 0-10, this one rates about an 8.9 on the stupidity scale. Any partially educated Jew will know that the goal of the ultra and religious zionist camps is to have halachic conversion. period. The ultras and national zionists don't care a hoot if the person converting is black, white, yellow or green, nor if they were a Christian, Muslim, atheist or Sikh - they care that the person is educated in Jewish laws and customs, is doing it because they think Hashem told them to, and that they will carry out the Jewish commandments, and that they do so out of a desire to do mitzvot. To accuse the religious of putting up walls to prevent the growth of secular Jews is simple one of the stupider statements I've seen in a long time.

that is the exact problem, many choose the conversion channel as way to get citizenship . But there are many genuine converts, these must not be confused with the economic advantage seekers . The jewish religious are intergral part of Israel and in no way one could say the religious jews should be despensed. One may argue that the state and the religions should be separate entity on issues of conversion and citizenship . It would be dubious to say that jewish religious has no part or say in the State , The jewish religious t are also voters. And they have been around longer then any now players or new imigrants. Never the less I cannot deny, the existence of "CRAZIES '. In the past months Ynet exposed many crazy Rabbis too. A factt that cannot be sweep down the carpet . The jewish religious being aready a citizen now has also the right to tell the Govt that many of the conversion has a self interest or the under lying agenda -to qualify for citizenship, In citizenship there are great attachments to obtain PECUNARY INTEREST and non- pecunary interest- the under lying actual agenda which is hidden by deemed honest resons. Compare these to the choice of conversion as a channel to citizenship ( if the is an abuse ) it dosent sound ethical and moral at all to stay in the Jewish Land a s a citizen in the first place.On has to have loyalty, integrity and a spriti of ownership to the Nation Israel. Theadvantage seekers could try the normal route of migration and naturaization channel to be a citizen, Again the issue is morality and ethics, to condutct once affair properly for the Nation Israel. But Conversion is a serious issue that must not be abused for the sake of citizenship. That is very cheap and not acceptable. It is a form of THEFT ! I wonder in the first place- on issues- How to grant citizen ship to those who conduct their afairs improperly by abusing the conversion ?No Rabbis or State should recognise these form of abuse.The Govt must also ensure that these kind of process is eradicated once and for all. Democracy does not mean one can bend the democracy rule to abuse due process of Law and the spirit and true intention of legislations concerning the Citizenship Rights and Previledges that comes with it.. Anyone who takes unfair advantage of the whole process will never be a good citizen or a good neighbours to the jewish community or among the Israelis.This a SERIOUS PROBLEM ! Another opinion , I strongly assert is those who seek to be citizen must never be a burden on the Nation - in the pecunary an non- pecunary sense. This is the general rule - the exception is those who are really poor must be give the necessary assistance by the state, be it they are jews or gentiles. In Israel many take citizenship just to enjoy the benefits without contributing to the economi of Israel.It is not fair ! Citizenship application is a very delicate issue that must be treated with RESPECT not to be taken advantage of as it would run hostile towards the national interest of Israel and the Rights and Liability of the Covenant Community at large particularly the Jewish Decendants of Israel- who are the real sons and daughters of Yisrael. Assumming if the orthodox jews were not there, it is still important to ensure that citizenship & conversion are not abused . Conversion and Citizenship under current circumstances in Israel is a security issue ! It has nothing to do with religios zionist or not. It is not an issue of abondoning the rabbinical court or not. Please dont drag Israel to further acromony but butteress by all means and dont ever DENY A RIGHTEOUS CONVERT !

Well , a non Israel inhabitant coming to tell us how to behave regarding conversion . Converting to have benefits ? What kind of benefits ? And after all , you don't pay for those "benefits" .

The Orthodox should net be forced to accept a convert not meeting their standards. But their standards should not be forced on an unwilling Israeli public. We need to concentrate on the Law of Return - people who already have a right to be here, not people/guest workers who can do a quickie conversion for the purposes of undermining us/economic advantage. The gov. of Israel needs to lead the way, and form a new category, "Israeli Jew". To be eligible, one would have to be here legally under the Law of Return, and desire to join the Jewish people. A civil servant could marry them, or the non-Orthodox rabbi of their choice. This would bring many seculars closer to some form of religion, rather than taking one look at the black hats and thinking Judasim and Hashem are only for them.

It's interesting that you talk about a couple of families who were members of a Reform temple but were not halachically Jewish. Well, at least these people joined a temple. My family is halachically Jewish, but none of us will step foot in a synagogue if we don't have to, so perhaps the people in that Reform temple at least deserve some credit since the reality is that not every Jew is going to be Orthodox. Not in America and not in Israel.