Jewish Scene
Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital
Published: 05.09.08, 07:24
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1. Now the Antisemites will say all Jews are Khazar converts
Semsem ,   New York, USA   (09.05.08)
Great. Now the antisemites will have more ammition to refer to Jews as Khazar converts to Judaism.
2. Now the Arabs will say that the Jews from Russia have no
Bill ,   USA   (09.05.08)
place in the Middle East.
3. # 1 So?
Bill ,   US   (09.05.08)
While the article doesn't make this clear, it was only the pagan royal court which converted to Judaism. Granted that court consisted of about 10,000 people. That number would not account for the number of Jews already living in Europe up until that point. The rest of Khazaria remained Christian and Muslim. As for what anti-semites think, I can't understand why you'd care.
4. #3 That is pure speculation
Chaim   (09.05.08)
The extent of the conversion is as as of yet unclear - I'm quite surprised that you claim to know it where scholars who spent years looking into it reached a wide variety of conclusions. Try to keep politics and academia separate, whether today's Ashkenazim are partly descended of converts or not really doesn't matter in the slightest.
5. Ask Arther Kostler about it
David   (09.05.08)
Arther kostler in his book The 13th tribe talked about that. and mentioned that most jews are from Khazarstan not from old Israeli sons. therefore he left Israel to London and lived there,not believing in establishing of Israel and the right of jews to return to Palestine
6. #5 Check your facts - Koestler supported Zionism
Chaim   (09.05.08)
And by the way Ynet, I don't appreciate that you censored my last message for no apparent reason.
7. this confirms that Eureopean Jews are Khazar converts
Objective Reader   (09.05.08)
and as a result of this fact, THEY ARE NOT SEMITES. Semsen wrote: "Great. Now the antisemites will have more ammition to refer to Jews as Khazar converts to Judaism." It is false to state to consider that exposing a historical fact regarding European (=non semite people) is "antisemitism".
8. #7 - Yawn, so predictable
Chaim   (09.05.08)
I'll bite. Pray tell, how does this "prove" that Ashkenazim are converts? Finding the Khazar capital in itself proves only that the Khazars had a capital.
9. To #1 and other Khazar problematics...
John ,   Europe   (09.05.08)
Check your Torah: it clearly states that blood is in matter on 3 counts: Cohen, Levi, Mashiah (house of David). In all other cases, it blood is OF NO IMPORTANCE! Even further: by stating that even Amalek can convert to Judaism it is stated that the blood background does matter absolutely nothing (except in these 3 cases). Now, since Jews are a NATION - Israelites - and are taking new members, by birth and by conversion - there is absolutely no reason that Khazars, Arabs, and whoever not be part of ISRAELI (Jewish) NATION. Now - G-d did not give Holy Land to a BLOOD decedents, since then conversion would not be possible - you can be a part of one faith but you cannot change your blood. So, by placing in Torah a possibility (and laws) of conversion, He effectively showed that the Holy Land is for NATIONAL, not blood, decedents of Avraham, Moshe etc. Therefor, the blood argument of Khazars is totally irrelevant and utterly stupid. And, of course, in line with crazy blood-oriented nazi ideology.
10. #7 - DNA proves you wrong....
the blondest european Jew is more similar genetically to the Samarians - the only ones who never left here - than is the darkest arab.
11. Khazars were in South Russia, not the 'Pale of Settlement'
Jake   (09.05.08)
where Jews were concentrated in Tzarist Russia, mostly in the lands between Poland and Russia proper. Furthermore, the Khazar kingdom was invaded by the Russians many many centuries before Ashkenazi Jews began their trek to eastward from Germany into Slavic lands(Yiddish is a West Germanic language! The Khazars were Turko-Mongolian). Most importantly, though, only the Khazar tribal elite (the royal family and perhaps a few hundred nobles) were known to have converted to Judaism, while the kingdom as a whole was multi-ethnic and multi-religious. Most of the Jewish population of the Khazar kingdom, comprised Jewish refugees from Islamic yoke in the Middle East. Once the Kievan Rus under Sviatoslav destroyed the Khazar kingdom in 969, the area was thoroughly Orthodox-Christianized. Furthermore, there is no evidence that a distinct Judaic Khazar identity survived the period of Islamization of the Turkic peoples and the Mongolian invasions. Though a small number of Khazars of convert origin may have been absorbed into existing Jewish communities, repeated DNA analyses have been unable to detect any significant Turko-Mongolian component among Ashkenazi Jews.
12. #7-Why not just quote
Arie ,   BaGolan   (09.05.08)
fromt he Protocols of the Elders of Zion
13. #9 John
David ,   USA   (09.05.08)
John I understand and agree with your arguement, however, you kind of left me wondering what you meant when you said, mashiah (House of David.) Are you suggesting by this that the DNA evidence exist to isolate the gene of anyone descending from Judah? Or, are you saying only that Mashiach must be from the House of David, in which case no proof would be necessary. It is my understand that to date only the Cohen gene has been isolated. If there is other evidence of the remaining tribes I would love to know it. Also, would the Cohen gene show up in all of Levi, since both groups are from Aharon?
14. Lost to History
Jerry Sussman ,   Alexandria USA   (09.05.08)
The story of Jews and Khazaria is like much of the other history of Jews: If it doesn't fit the stereotype, it is lost to history. Before Hitler, encyclopedias credited Siegfried Marcus, not Daimler Benz, as inventor of internal combustion engine and automobile. Before Hitler, encyclopedias credited Jacob Reis, not Alexander Bell, with the invention of the telephone. And before there was Robert E. Lee, there was General David Twiggs, the highest ranking Confederate General. Marcus, Reis and Twiggs, of course, all were Jews. I recently completed four college semesters in Russian language. The professor was a well-credentialed, and fair-minded gentile, who included much Russian culture in the lectures. "What about the Jews of Khazaria," I once asked. "Pure fiction," he replied. Oddly, however, over the course of the four semesters, and without a single reference to Jews or Khazaria, the professor casually mentioned, among other things: (1) For some "unknown" reason, there are several hundred years of Russian history about which nothing was written or known. Yet the period immediately before and immediately after this unknown epoch are well reported. Coincidentally, the obscure period is the same period during which Khazaria supposedly existed. (2) When the written Russian language first was established by Catholics Cyril and Methodius, they patterned the Russian alphabet after the Greek alphabet. Well, not entirely. For some unknown reason, the written Russian alphabet includes several Hebrew characters which in both appearance and pronunciation, are the same as their Hebrew counterparts. Another coincidence, I'm sure. (3) The word for "Easter" in Russia and much of Eastern Europe is not "Easter," or anything that sounds like Easter. It is "Pesach," ("Pashka") and similar. Once again, and the "Last Supper" notwithstanding, I'm sure it is a pure coincidence that the Hebrew word for Passover is used by gentiles to identify Easter. I do not know much about Khazaria and am uncertain of its reach. But if the Jews of Khazaria were as few in number as has been suggested, and if their influence likewise was as meager, there seems no logical reason for the deference accorded to Hebrew culture in as rabidly and consistently an antisemitic territory of what is now Russia and Eastern Europe.
15. One can't have too much of history
Damir ,   Russia   (09.05.08)
Every bit is important to us. Go ahead.
16. #7 has no CLUE about the first thing of history
Jake   (09.05.08)
The Jews of Eastern Europe had NOTHING to do with the Khazars, neither geographically, nor ethnically, nor linguistically. The Ashkenazi Jews originated as a cultural group in GERMANY and Alsace (which they had entered in Roman times via Rome itself), and Yiddish is a Germanic, not Turko-Mongolic (Khazar) language. Only the Khazar TRIBAL LEADERS converted to Judaism, and the kingdom was multi-religious and multi-ethnic. Most of the Jews who lived in Khazaria were REFUGEES from the ISLAMIC Middle East. Ashkenazi Jews did not enter Russia for more than 500 years after the Khazar kingdom was destroyed, Slavonized, and Christianized. Just the facts, please. #10 tells it eloquently, like it is: "the blondest european Jew is more similar genetically to the Samarians - the only ones who never left here - than is the darkest arab."
17. #7, there is no such thing as a 'Semite'
Jake   (09.05.08)
only Semitic languages. The term 'Semite' is derived from the Biblical Shem, who was the ancestor of various peoples speaking various languages, including the non-'Semitic' Elamites of Iran and even the Indo-European Lydians of western Turkey. It's funny how the Johnny-come-lately Arabs are not listed in the Bible anywhere as being descendants of Shem or even Abraham and Ishmael (who never went to the Arabian peninsula!!). Yet in modern times, Arabs are trying to write the Jewish people out of their own history and Bible, and put themselves in instead. Unbelievable.
18. #14 Jerry
David ,   USA   (09.05.08)
Easter is a holiday of sungod worshipers and has nothing to do with Pasach. It is the observance of the Babylonian sungod deity Ishtar. It is an abomination. With its egg laying bunnies of furtility and reproduction and eggs died red in the blood of children sacrificed to Ashtarte. You seem to know a little something about the Fathers festivals and Jewish things. How is it you don't know this. To compare Pasach with Ishtar worship is blasphemy.
19. Easter v. Pesach, #18 David
Jerry Sussman ,   Alexandria, USA   (09.05.08)
Hi, David. Thank you. I acknowledge that the genesis of Easter may be different from that of Passover. But that was not my point any more than it was my point to debate whether the reason that we know of General Lee but not of General Twiggs was because General Twiggs died before the major battles of the Civil War had occurred. My counter to that, of course, would be that there were other Jewish generals (e.g., Maurice Rose), who did fight in major battles, but who likewise were lost to history. Rather, my point was this: In the United States and elsewhere, the period during which the "Last Supper" is celebrated is known as "Easter," and not "Passover" or "Pesach" or "Pashka." Does it not seem noteworthy that in Russia, a territory no less "pagan" than the United States and elsewhere in Europe, the name "Pashka" is used to refer to this event? Had there been no widespread Hebrew influence in Russia, some other phrase or word, with an etymology far more attenuated in its relationship to the word "Pesach" would have been used. In English, the word "Passover" bears little resemblance to the word "Pesach." Yet, in Russian, the words "Pesach" and "Pashka" are much less distinguishable.
20. #7: "Objective Reader" - you are neither
5th generation ,   Israel   (09.06.08)
21. # 10 And speaking of DNA
Petra ,   usa   (09.06.08)
there's a book I've been meaning to read called, "The Origins of Man" by Steven Wells, phd.@ scu, who was featured on PBS some time ago. A fascinating study of what may be the genesis of both the first Africans and Jews in his study and results. Someday perhaps more will be documented.
22. Amazing any Jews survived in Russia.
Petra ,   usa   (09.06.08)
My mothers family came from the Ukraine and how they treated Jews was a sin. I recall she said she kissed the ground when they arrived in America. The year was 1921. God bless America. God bless Israel.
23. #19 Jerry
David ,   USA   (09.06.08)
Your point is well taken. I agree that the use of the word paska or pasach in Russia is proof of the presence of Jews there, Just as the Los Lomas inscriptions of the ten commandments in paleo hebrew in New Mexico is proof of their presence in America thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus. Probably from the days of Solomon. We know that anti-semites are going to use any argument they can to destroy the Jews. Smoke screens are a favorite tool. However, if all Jews would return to Torah and recognize Mashiach they would no longer have to try and proove their existence and influence in the world. There is One who is greater that would fight those battles for them.
24. #17 - No such thing as a Semite
Canderra ,   NYC   (09.06.08)
It's funny how you recognize that language does not equal ancestry for Semites, but seem to think that 'Arabs' all have one origin. The Arabs of Israel-Palestine have a mixed heritage. Most are the descendants of Jews and Christians who lived there during the Byzantine period - as well as later immigrants, including people from Arabia. Just look at the Samaritans. The main difference between them and other Palestinian 'Arabs' is their religion.
25. #18 David - A holiday of sungod worshippers
Canderra ,   NYC   (09.06.08)
If people play with dreidels does that make Hanukah a holiday of gamblers? This sounds like a take-off on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Calling their most holy festival 'an abomination' is more than insulting to Christians. What's wrong with you?
26. #25 Canderra
David ,   USA   (09.07.08)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me Canderra. If the truth is insulting then let it be insulting. Mixing the Appointed times of the Father with idol worship is an abomination. We are commanded to not worship Him like the nations worship their gods. I was lied to for over 40 years with the story that Easter was a holiday that pleased the Father. If you want to believe that lie, go ahead but I choose to keep the appointed times of HaShem.
27. to Canderra #24, 25
Anna ,   Montreal, Canada   (09.07.08)
I find, David in his talkback #18 described the origins of the Eastern European holiday that were (conveniently) lost in history, and nothing else. In a Jewish tradition of playing dreidl the idea is completely opposite: to remember why this game exists. There is nothing offensive in David’s reply. And I certainly disagree with your statements about origins of Israeli Arabs and Samaritans. I find your knowledge ungrounded and incomplete.
28. #5 His name is: Arthur Koestler
woww ,   LA   (09.07.08)
You might want to actually read his books. It helps. He never lived in Israel, born in Hungary and went to school in Vienna due to the "numerus clausus" a law in effect in Hungary forbidding jews in greater number then their proportion among the population to go to universities there. Moved to London escaping the nazis and was throughout his life a supporter of Israel. He wrote The 13th tribe in defense of judaism against the nazi ideologies.
29. antisemites
Jerry ,   San Francisco   (12.25.08)
You are not making sense. Arabs are also semites. Jews are not race, since there are also black African Jews, Chinese Jews and the blond-blue eyed from Russia and Poland.
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