Jewish Scene
Court issues temporary ban on Shabbat fencing meet
Aviad Glickman
Published: 24.10.08, 15:34
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29 Talkbacks for this article
1. And those who are working ?
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.24.08)
Will they , the majority , need to leave their work and loose pay , and maybe even loose their jobs ? If they have to loose their jobs , is this equality ? when can those tounaments take place then , if not the week end ?
2. Free choice
Takan ,   Eilat   (10.24.08)
Religion is a personal choice and should stay that way. If Yuval chooses not to fence or do anything else on saturday according to his religious beliefs, it's his choice and with all choices come sacrifices. Yuval should try to fit his religion into his life or fit his life into his religion. If you don't wanna fence on saturday, don't. But do not force the consequences of your choices upon others. If saturday is fine for me to fence, why wouldn't I? Same goes with pork. It's not because they sell it that you have to eat it. Trying to adapt your fencing habit to your religious rules sounds to me like trying to turn pork into beef so you can eat it. But between you and me, Yuval, all this shabbat fuss is overrated. It is man-made rules to have a resting day a week. Others rest on sunday. If God expect you to respect Shabbat, maybe he wants you to respect every cofffee break at work as divine as well. Give ME a break. If God is God, he has no need to rest as he would be perfect. Men on the other hand...far from perfect, and so gullible..., do need to rest and so they found a nice way to explain why they don't do nothing 1 day a week.
3. Touché - Against religious coercion
Ilan ,   Ariel   (10.24.08)
Long past due to use the courts to protect religious freedom. No one should be forced to chose between their faith and the ability to participate in society or to make a living.
4. This is not religious discrimination
Ron Morris   (10.24.08)
I assume the other participants are Jewish. If they can fence on Saturday, so can this boy. He is not being discriminated against because he is Jewish. He has chosen to take himself out of the framework of normal society and now he wants to drag others into his demented reality. If he can't be normal, then he doesn't have any right to complain.
5. And when the international competitions are on shabbat...?
Yael ,   Tel Aviv   (10.24.08)
What will they do then? Indeed, most international competitions are indeed held over weekends, particularly when they involve children because of school considerations. Sorry kid, welcome to the real world.
6. to all
Rami ,   Atlanta   (10.24.08)
Wow - what a shame. Yael "the real world"?
7. Kudos To Freilich
Yishai Kohen ,   YeShA, Israel   (10.24.08)
Jews who observe Judaism shouldn't face discrimination in the Jewish state.
8. School finish early in this country - no reason to play on
rebecca ,   modiin   (10.24.08)
The schools in this country end really early in the day, because they are at school on Friday. There is no reason to hold tournaments on Shabbat. You'd think they would want the best on the Israel team - but those chelonim with a problem would rather not have a religious Jew on their team than win.
9. Rebecca , # 8
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.24.08)
And what about international competitions on Shabbat as Yael asks ? So why compete in Israel if he can't compete internationally ? And such a competion is not finished in one afternoon . So parents have to leave their work to bring their children there , two or more times in a week ? And this for ONE child who is religious ?
10. Let him fence!
Elianah ,   Ramat HaSharon   (10.24.08)
Fencing's awesome and I think this kid should have every chance to compete. Hopefully he'll find more non-Saturday tournaments to go to. If not, could he convince the judges to let him fence dry (ie non-electric)? There should be no problem with non-electric fencing presuming they have enough officials and some good spirited opponents.
11. What do you mean by a Jewish state?
Ilan ,   Ariel   (10.24.08)
If Jews can't keep their religion and also participate what is meant by a Jewish state. You wear a Jewish star instead of a cross, but otherwise no difference?
12. To Rebecca
Ariel ,   Ramat Ha Golan   (10.24.08)
I do agree with Charles, schools finish early but some of us do have day jobs. If I had to leave work early to take my son to matches, I'd use up all my holiday time. I do think it's unfair to inconvenience so many children and parents only for one child.
13. Forced to ask, what's the point?
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, DC USA   (10.24.08)
Charles (#8) asks "what about international competitions on Shabbat" and "this for ONE child who is religious?" Your bigotry is palpable. If Israel is to be no different from other nations, if it has no values of its own to uphold, what is the point? If Israel acts in a fashion that discriminates against Jews who choose to follow Jewish values, again, what is the point? He shouldn't have to defend himself among his own kind even before he faces the more hostile international arena who could care less about him. As to your "And this for ONE child who is religious?" I'm sure there are many who want to fully participate in the nation's activities who see they are unwelcome by your kind. So they say, again, what's the point.
14. Court issues temporary ban on Shabbat fencing meet
Lance Harrell ,   Austin, TX, USA   (10.24.08)
I find this unbelievable that even in Israel, one has to struggle to keep the Shabbat. This should be a no-brainer.
15. intolerance in the name of liberty
yoni ,   jerusalem   (10.24.08)
I cannot bear to see this anymore. The seculars are so hypocritical and full of hate. There is no tolerance toward anyone who doesnt fit their bill and they do it all in the name of liberalism and tolerance. I see nothing more than ignorance and hate toward the religious. The truth is that all jews are in it together. Judaism is a religion and it is not something that is just made up according to the way we feel. It is equal values for all jews. Why does one jew decide to keep shabbat and the other have no part in it? I mean what is Judaism without the torah? NOTHING. Judaism is nothing without G-d and the birth of our religion is base entirely on our torah. Go and learn about it!!!
16. Shabbat Shalom
Ben ,   Monroe USA   (10.24.08)
Fencing on Shabbat? Is this labor? No?? OK, he feels it is not proper for him. Fine. That's his perogative. By exercising his perogative, that does not give him the right to determine what is proper for anyone else. Mamalushin, he wants to tell others how to live their lives. That's religious coercion.
17. He wants to participate in world champs
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.24.08)
Great for him if he can achieve it . That's why he needs first to be an Israeli Champion . And then ? World champs timetables are not bound by Shabbat . This is stupidly called intolerance and hatred by some . But to want people leave their jobs two or more times in a week , what is this ? Will you pay for this ? Why should parents have to travel two or more times to the Israeli champs if it can be done in one week end ? Who is intolerant here ? Israel is a State for the Jews , not ruled by Torah as far as known to me . With your hatred towards the seculars you achieve just one thing , we will more and more distance ourselve from you , and that's your own fault .
18. #1 It's called Sunday
Stan ,   USA   (10.24.08)
I know you've never heard of this day in Israel as a weekend day. Maybe you should make it one and get up to speed with the US. And I'm not aware of many parents worried about their boss firing them for taking their kid to a tournament or arranging for their transportation otherwise.
19. Unbelievable Ron
Hannah   (10.25.08)
Read your post again Ron it is moronic. This boy lives in the only Jewish country in the world, where he should be able to be a complete Jewish person AND be able to succeed in his sport. This is what the pioneers fought for, the right to be a Jew and you are so eager to give it up! I live in the galut, I accept no one will change their xtian day of rest for my one. You are all so eager to give up your shabbat, when the 'day of rest' was one of the Jew's greatest gifts to mankind. If one can't be a Jew in Israel, then where. Since when did you, the virtual goy, become 'normal' and this observant kid not? TIme you went to a nice goyish country with the pork you love and left real Jews alone
20. Stan 18
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.25.08)
As i lived in Europe for most of my life i know what a week end means for Gentiles . You have to know that here many do not work on Friday , school till 1 PM , so for us this week end begins a day earlier as in your country . As a tournament takes place during more than one afternoon , there is always the possibility that a boss does'nt agree for more absences . I had a colleague fired for "unjustified absences" , not here but in Europe .
21. Hannah 19
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.25.08)
this is what the pioneers fought for , you wrote . Not exactly , they fought for a country were Jews could be free . Many , if not most of those pioneers were seculars . Most of those 6000 Braves who gave their blood for this were seculars if not anti religious . I know , it's a problem for religious people . We had a religious competitor at the Olympics , she was lucky not to have to fight on Shabbat . But to compel all the others to have those tournaments in the week , is this feasable ? The organisers are mostly , if not all , volunteers who are doing a great job . Do they too have to loose working hours ? This will have a bad impact on all sports here , as many competitions take place this day . Regarding this Ron , sorry , not worth an answer . PS don't you live in a "goyish" country ? and did'nt you write Shabbat ?
22. Nr 1
leon ,   Grand Rapids USA   (10.25.08)
23. Leon # 22 , it's only my third language
Charles ,   Petach tikva   (10.25.08)
And your corrections are welcome
24. fencing on shabbat
sid ,   asdod, israel   (10.25.08)
I read many TB's from secular jews who constantly attack the charedim for not working, not serving in the army, not taking part in the cultural and social aspects of Israeli life. Yet when a religious kid wants to do something that meets their desires, he is shot down for demanding his civil and religious rights. And if the charedim agreed to serve in the army but demanded glatt kosher food in all army kitchens, and no public desecration of shabbat, according to these TBs on the fencing issue, they would be told to go fly a kite. You seculars ought to get your act together and decide where you stand on the issues before you attack the religious.
25. Fencing Champion of Israel
Moshe Kahan ,   Beit El Israel   (10.25.08)
Yuval You truly are a champion of Israel. Moshe
26. It is wonderful to see a young athlete keep Shabbat. GREAT!!
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (10.26.08)
27. Seculars need more chill
Mike ,   Chicago   (10.26.08)
Hey, Seculars need a bit more chill. Why be secular if it is going to be so uptight. regarding religion. It is not like a crime or taking drugs or murder? Is it? So Uptight
28. Sid , Ashdod 24
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.26.08)
Yes seculars attack charidim for not working , and so on . But this kid is CERTAINLY not charidi . He has all the rights , but others too have rights . They have the right to work in the week , without loosing time because of ONE who wants also to participate . It's a difficult issue . Can i have a bus on Shabbat to bring me to a football game ? No . there is not any . So i can't watch a game . Is this not CONTRARY to my civil and secular rights ? Maybe he can also stay at home ?
29. Shabbat
Silvana ,   Glasgow   (10.29.08)
What is this young man going to do if he reaches the international arena?
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