Opinion
Proportionality and hypocrisy
Martin Sherman
Published: 14.01.09, 23:46
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47 Talkbacks for this article
31. finally someone sees the light
Facts of Life ,   Sanity, USA   (01.16.09)
This is a great article that touches on all the relevant points. If someone tried to kill someone elses family and managed only to wound their child, what is a proportional response. It is obvious to any sane human being that nothing less than total destruction of the enemy is proportional. All the disproportionate screamers have no problem when the Lebanese, Kuwaitis or Egyptians slaughter Palestinians. You don't hear nary a peep from them. Israeli public relations has purposely been weak due to the influence of the Left. They unfairly feel guilty about Israel's success. They also want to push Oslo and other disastrous and failed 'peace' initiatives so they deliberately put up a weak and apologetic front. The current PR approach has made Israel on a global level the sniveling, downtrodden Diaspora Jew who beseechingly looks up to his gentile masters for approval.
32. Disproportionate Force...
Ben Hur ,   Manhattan, USA   (01.16.09)
When applied by non-Jews is called THE POWELL DOCTRINE.
33. Anti-Semitism?
Stephen Morgan ,   London UK   (01.16.09)
Come on, Mr Gangbar - that old excuse is sad, deluded and easily the most empty arguement used by aplogists of Israeli war mongers. Can eveyone hide behind the same excuse? It's not going to work is it? For example, I despise Tony Blair because he was a lying, corrupted, coward and war monger who caused the UK to join Bush's failed war in Iraq against the wishes of the UK people and against International law. But you think I hate him because he's Scottish??!! I don't hate him because of anti-Scotishism, I hate him because he's a war criminal!
34. Public Image Problem?
Stephen Morgan ,   London UK   (01.16.09)
Martin Sherman thinks Israel has an image problem!? Gee, I wonder why? He seems to think that because western governments are utterly hypocritical that its ok to murder hundreds of children. If the massacres in Gaza had the slightest chance of bring peace to Israel, they would would at least have the dubious cover of being a means to an end, but murdering a load of Palestinians has never worked in the past, has it? The people on this site remind me of gung-ho Americans at the start of the Iraq war (or Vietnam) - believing that their superior kill-power would solve the problem - result: endless years of killing and nothing to show for it at the end.
35. Martin Serman Article Proportionality and Hypocrisy
R Cook ,   Seattle, WA   (01.17.09)
I totally agree with you. Israel needs to do a better job at exposing the international hypocrisy. Silence on these issues does not help them at all. Silence only fosters increasing hostility towards them. Israel has to educate the world to gain support.
36. Stephen Morgan problem?
JPS ,   Efrat   (01.17.09)
Stephen Morgan thinks Israel has an image problem!? Gee, I wonder why? He seems to think that because Arab and non-aligned governments are utterly hypocritical that its ok to murder hundreds of Israeli civilians. If the massacres in Tel Aviv, Netanya and Jerusalem had the slightest chance to bring independence to Palestine, they would would at least have the dubious cover of being a means to an end, but murdering a load of Israelis has never worked in the past, has it? The Stephen Morgans who send talkbacks remind me of gung-ho politically incorrect do-gooders at the start of the Afghanistan war - believing that their superior leftist-power would solve the problem - result: endless years of trying to hold back NATO forces has allowed the Taliban to retrench and kill civilians with impunity. If the anti-war forces had their way, the Taliban would be back in power and all women and girls would be slaves again, and Hamas would take over Gaza and launch its final jihad to kill 7 million Israelis. Sure Stephen, keep talking...
37. Wrong comparison
Sebaneau ,   Paris   (01.18.09)
NATO never showed “wilful disregard” for civilians. As a matter of fact, for the same reasons as the IDF –respect for the laws of war and political self-interest– they showed an unprecedented concern for the avoidance of civilian casualties. The 500 Serbian civilians killed in a 2 1/2 month-campaign compare favorably with the 2,274 officially killed in the first bombardment of Belgrade by the Luftwaffe on April 6-7, 1941. The IDF is just even more cautious about “innocent” Hamas voters being killed in Gaza because of the double standards used against Israel and the Jews by the MSM. Of course, Milošević had dutifully learned from his “progressive” “Palestinian” accomplices the practice of hiding behind civilians and civilian facilities: that is why so many schools, churches and hospitals were also hit as “collateral damage”, after which special teams made all remnants of the destroyed military targets disappear. But if the NATO bombings had really been perceived as dangerous by the Serbian populace, they would never had willingly served as human shields, dancing on bridges and challenging NATO to aim at them, in an unwitting acknowledgement of the West’s, and their own, conceptions of war-making. The War of Kosova Liberation was only perceived as “ugly” because the ground invsaion never came and the Kosovars seemed to have been deliberately abandoned to their Serbolshevik tormentors for the sake of avoiding military casualties. The Kosovars accepted this because they were grateful or the help anyway, were willing to sacrifice for their liberation, and the massacre of 10,000 of them and the temporary expulsion of 800,000 provided them with an ultimately successful defense against Serbian sovereignty claims where legal arguments based on their status in the 1974 Yugoslav Constitution had failed.
38. here here
terry ,   nz   (01.19.09)
I fully agree, when you take everything away from people and treat them like animals, when you go in every now and then and kill some more "terrorists", when you demolish their homes and deny them the right to rebuild on their own land because they don't have permits which by the way only Israelis can get. when you build more and more israeli homes on disputed land which the UN has told Israel time and time again not to as it is against international law and you wonder why you have rockets fired into Israel when you have people willing to die for their cause, you have to ask yourself "is it better to die on your own terms or just wait to die on the Israeli terms?" i know plenty of jewish people in NZ and they are genuinely nice people what Israel is doing does nothing to promote itself. Gaza= the warsaw ghettos of the 21century, downright shame!!
39. Terry #38
Dana ,   Israel   (01.19.09)
Learn some basic history before you speak, mate. Arab hatred towards Jews in the middle east began long before the establishment of Israel. Read about the pogroms of 1920 and 1929, for instance. Arabs butchered Jews also after the establishment of Israel by UN decision, and prior to the 1967 war (when Gaza and other territories were occupied by Israel that was attacked in all fronts and borders). Claiming that the occupation of the Palestinians is the cause of hatered is, hence, mere ignorance. The Fatah terrorist organization was established in 1959 by the terrorist Yasser Arafat, by the way. The PLO (do some reading, it won't harm) was established in 1964. Which "Palestine" were they talking about? And why didn't any Arab nation care for the poor Palestinians prior to the Israeli occupation in 1967? Hypocritic Jordan murdered thousands of Palestinians in "Black September", 1970. Did ou know that? Dear Terry, such a shame the lovely NZ is spotted with blind haters like yourself.
40. Stephen Morgan #33
Dana ,   Israel   (01.19.09)
If you hate people for war crimes, then you must loath the Palestinians and be utterly disgusted by many Arab and Muslim nations or organizations. You must be full of self-revulsion, being British. Who defines a "war crime"? Ask the victims, and never forget to question both sides. In this case, friend, I do hope you sleep well at night.
41. One more thing to Stephen Morgan #33, 34
Dana ,   Israel   (01.19.09)
When you question both sides in a "war cime" you won't always find reasonable answers on both sides. But it is wise to study a case properly before making definitions. Same goes for your statements about Israel/the US thinking it's "okay to murder hundreds of children". Why do I bother, it seems you're an absoute ignoramus on the middle east issues.
42. martin sherman's disproportionality
esther kandel ,   los angleles   (01.19.09)
martin sherman makes outstanding points. his suggestion to line up NATO leaders of war in Kosovo or representatives of those countries and question them about what they did during that war, while armed with the figures he provides of civilian deaths, is outstanding. this should be required reading for all israeli govt. spokespeople for the next go- round, which sadly is invevitable. esther kandel los angeles, ca
43. same old response
terry ,   NZ   (01.19.09)
why oh why is it Dana that everytime someone doesnt support your viewpoint they are called "blind haters"!! Israel was created by the UN because the jewish people at the time captured it and refused to let it go and the world felt guilt (and rightly so!!) for doing nothing while the holocaust was happening. You fail to counter any of my other remarks about israel building on Palestian land against international law or the bulldozing of their homes also against international law and then refusing all palestians building permits. admit it all this is really about Israel grabbing land!! Once again if you take everything away from people they have nothing left to lose and may as well fight to the death!! Israel should be ashamed of itself!! and small minded people like yourself who always come up with the same old arguements need to rethink, did it work in the past? no! will killing thousands work now? no! after all these years do you not think that the time has come to actually stopping treating the occupied territories as your own land? Why is it that so many Israelis can see this? Oh thats right the ones who refuse to serve in the military and demonstrate are traitors! go figure. Do you not see the comparison to the warsaw ghettos? the only difference is that you dont send them to concentration camps!
44. Terry #43
Dana ,   Israel   (01.20.09)
Dear Terry, a "blind hater" you were called by me, and still are, because you once again proved that you simply don't know enough about our history to have such a one-sided point of view. The Jewish people at the time "captured" Israel?! What a fluttering notion. I wish my grandparents were alive to hear that people actually think that in their generation, approximately half a million Jewish residents of the British mandate, the vast majority of whom never held a gun, "captured" this land. Thank you for the credit. Now, let's just assume this notion is true. If it was illegitimate, the way Jews "captured the land and refused to let it go", then how exactly is the Palestinian struggle legitimate? Do you really wish to get down to "who was here first"? I'm not sure you'll have the upper hand in this one. As for the holocaust, the world was damn right to feel guilty, but that's a whole different issue. BTW, did you know that Hitler didn't bother hiding his close connections with Arab leaders? Interesting. "Israel grabbing land"? Pure interpretation. I can not "admit" to it, especially not now, when three years ago Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and that only led to an acceleration of Palestinian terrorism. Terry, Israel has been trying for years to achieve some agreement with the Palestinians for years now. After the Oslo agreement with Arafat in 1994 we suffered one of the most horrible waves of terrorism ever. Arafat kept lecturing that Israel should be eliminated. In 2005 we withdrew from Gaza, painfully evacuating thousands of Jews from their homes, only to get the Hamas and thousands of missiles to the south of Israel. Please counter this. Try to do it intelligently. Don't shout. The comparison to the Warsaw ghettos is not only rude but rather imbecilic. Terry, if you feel so strongly about "land capturing" and killing thousands of people in a war, I expect you to tear you NZ passport to tiny pieces over what whites did to the Maoris less than two centuries ago. Many Maoris still feel like class B citizens in your country, is than not so? The Maoris did not fire rockets or send suicide bombers to explode amongst white people, did they? Shame on you, Terry. And where would you go? The UK? Out of question, the rotten colonialists and occupiers of Northern Ireland. The US? Oh, the poor Indians, whose misery is celebrated every year in Thanksgiving. Most of Europe would be illegitimate, not to mention Australia – one can never forgive the crimes towards Aborigines, who really never fought against the whites. In short, Terry, you are a blind hater of Jews/Israel/Israeli Jews. If you wish to explain yourself or discuss it intelligently, please write my email address. Cheers.
45. My email address
Dana ,   Israel   (01.20.09)
Ichelczik@yahoo.com Terry most welcome to write. Others too. Hate mail will be deleted.
46. Inquiry commission to be appointed
attal ,   france paris   (01.21.09)
After Gaza op ,worldwide and in Israel ,some are desappointed by the importance of collateral damages versus the poor results of Gaza op : ie Hamas is still governing Gaza , the weapons are partially still there ,guilad Shalit is in Hamas hands,the smugling tunnels have not be fully destroyed, the image of Israel is affected by War crimes accusations. It would be a benefit both for Israel ,the jews and the democratie to appoint an independant commission to investigate on the decision making process that led to this situation
47. Terry never wrote
Dana ,   Ramat Gan   (01.25.09)
Ignorant blind haters don't involve in discussion.s
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