Opinion
Defining war crimes
Anav Silverman
Published: 21.01.09, 18:24
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61. #54- blah blah blah
GUH   (01.22.09)
((Hamas launched over 3000 missiles and bombs at Israel last year to provoke an attack)) Well no telling how many bombs, shells, and munitions, all of which are more deadly, destructive, and accurate, landed on the heads of Palestinians, some of which are still unexploded. In the last days of the Lebanon war, over 1,000,000 cluster munitions were dropped in the south. ((Hiding in schools, mosques and using civilians as shields was their mode of operation)) Excuses, excuses, excuses. Cynthia, there are well documentated cases of high profile massacres that clearly refute this oft-repeated excuse. I don't believe anybody in the century of aerial warfare has had the nerve to say, "our enemy was hiding behind civilians-" only the IDF- claim everything, explain nothing, deny everything. ((These animals destroyed their own people and everything in sight to please their masters in Iran)) Blaming others for your crime? Iran and "these animals" would like to see the Palestinians enjoying what is their birthright, whereas you and your kind want them dead, expelled, imprisoned, etc... It is as if you, in your blind support for IDF operations (which, may I remind you, left 1300 dead, 5000 wounded, and 45,000 without a roof over their heads) actually pretending to care about Palestinians, obviously a pretense for your disdain and contempt for them. You clearly belong in the Smithsonian. ((When Israel bombs her attackers back, you play possum and whine about how bad Israel is)) Ignorance. "Bombing her attackers" means bombing hospitals, schools, mosques, homes, cars, university campuses, police stations, power plants, places of refuge, aid workers, journalists, and United Nations installations. Combine this with the fact that Gazans are deprived of EVERYTHING, from food to electricity and medicine, and that clearly gives me a mental picture of the "good and bad" in this situation. ((Moral of story.....bombing a neighboring country in an effort to terrorize and destroy them is a war crime.)) EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SPOT ON! At last you get something right Cynthia, well done, I'm very proud of you!
62. civilian resistance and #60 Gazan
israeli ,   israel   (01.22.09)
shooting Iranian and Chinese made Grads into Israeli cities does not quite qualify as civilian resistance. It is actually a declaration of war on a sovereign state who has been known to defend itself in the past and will do so in the future. and #60, Gazan in Gaza City - the definition of occupation is not something you can twist to suit your own purpose. Occupation implies a military presence that imposes a certain form of governance. As far as I know, Hamas was elected in democratic elections and even ousted Fatah out of power in a violent and bloody putsch. There were people in Gaza claiming at the time that the Israeli occupation had been gold compared to what Hamas was doing - all that lynching int he streets, tossing rivlas off rooftops, shooting in the legs and crippling people and such. So you see, there was no Israeli occupation when Hamas took power, not since, and even these past three weeks do not quite qualify as occuption but rather as military operation. Border control si just that, border control, not occupation. Besides, we just saw on tv that most of you people do not live in miserable conditions and the only injustice done to you is the one you suffer at the hands of your miserable leaders. Palestine was never a country, Gaza was never a country, the West Bank was never a country. You could have had your state in Gaza and West Bank under Arafat, but he chose violence. Then you voted in Hamas whose purpose is to destroy the State of Israel and murder all Jews. But you better understand that we are not going anywhere and you have to start building your own lives instead of trying to destroy ours. BTW, shooting rockets into military bases of a neighboring country is also an act of war. You should attack only those Israeli military targets you can find in Gaza, and even then an armed civilian cannot claim protection based on the Geneva convention.
63. #30, oscar in buenos aires
israeli ,   israel   (01.22.09)
so what exactly are you doing in buenos aires?
64. Sorry 59 but I need to correct a minor point
John Phee ,   Sydney AUSTRALIA   (01.22.09)
Hilonia, the Jews did not kill Jesus. It's an old story spread by the Roman Catholic Church. The death penalty was given by Pilot the ROMAN govenor. The Cross was a ROMAN punishment. The Cross was supplied by the ROMANs. The nails were driven in by a ROMAN soldier. The Cross was put in place (upright) by ROMAN's & their employees. The spear thrust was from a ROMAN soldier. I know that you will see the continuity & why Roman (Catholacism want to blame Jews). Now for the Jews (then), they were guilty of False Witness, which in a Capital Crime is a Capital Offense itself. So at worst they are only equally guilty along with Rome. Petty point I know, but not trivial since so many millions have died because of it & the way in which Romes has used for for 1500 years.
65. to 61; blablabla you too
Smith   (01.23.09)
I'm very proud of you, continue to believe Palestinian vitriol.
66. Brett #10 one question
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (01.23.09)
In Kosovo NATO bombed the area for 80 days straight, killed over 1,600 people and just over 100 of those were combatants. So over 90% of those killed were civilians. The Serbs attacked nobody yet NATO bombed them and kept bombing them Why no war-crime there? We managed to get about 75% combatants. By the way the US in World War 2 managed to kill over 2,000,000 enemy, yet lost less than 10% of that, wouldn't that be a war-crime too?
67. To A. Silverman. Your Article FAR MORE Superior.
Maansingh ,   The Netherlands   (01.23.09)
You value Palestinian civilian lives and Israeli civilian lives EQUALLY, while George Bisharat does NOT value Israeli civilian lives. That being the case, your article at hand is FAR MORE superior than George Bisharat’s article. Just see the LOW CLASS thinking of people like George Bisharat.
68. The Difference is...
Kim ,   Australia   (01.23.09)
The difference is that Silverman so conveniently ignores is that Israel is AN OCCUPYING POWER. Under Internatinoal law, Israel is still occupying Gaza because it controls its land, sea and air border, having turned Gaza into an open air prison. As an occupying power, it has the duty to protect those its occupying. The Palesitinians on the other hand are an OCCUPIED PEOPLE and under international law, an occupied people have the right to armed resistance against their occupiers. Silverman ignores this fact and the fact that the violence of an occupier is different from the violence of an occupied people against those who occupy them. This is why what Isarel has done is a war crime and why the Palestinians actions aren't .
69. #62
Gazan ,   Gaza city,Palestine   (01.23.09)
Unfortunately my reference is different from yours. According to the UN, the Gaza strip as well as the West bank are considered occupied territories by Israel. Even your friend America consider them occupied. As far as us living in good conditions, hell no man. Here is a short list of the general as well as personal suffering in Gaza: Israeli restrictions led to: 1- Unemployment rate is around 80%. [cuz a lot of workers used to work in Israel but Israel denied them since 2001. Israel destroyed a lot of economy resources in the strip including farms,factories in response to rocket launching. Israel no longer imports a lot of goods from Gaza, Palestinians in Gaza are not allowed to travel to any other country to work cuz Israel closed Erez and Rafah crossings since the control of Hamas]. 2- Poor Infrastructure (including traffic,water,electricity,etc). A lot was destroyed during the last war. There is also random structure for many refugee camps in Gaza. 3- Blockade: We have been suffering from a harsh blockade for more than eight months so far. You cant send/receive mail,parcels. You cant export/import anythig. You only need to rely to what comes out of tunnels. Tunnels itself is a tragedy. Many died inside them, but these people didnt have any choice. 4-Siege: The only for us to travel out of the strip is through Rafah crossing. Since the taking over of Hamas, both Egypt and Israel refuse opening it. Ive got two visas. one to the UK ( a work visa), and the other is an educational visa to Turkey as I got a PhD scholarship there. I have been trying for seven months to travel out of the strip. I tried every single way. I appealed to all human rights organizations in Israel. I had the turkish consulate apply to help me travel through Erez crossing. I kept waiting for Rafah crossing to open up. Im about to lose my dreams forever and be locked in the strip. I guess that would make you happy. Do I deserve that? I have nothing to do with Hamas or Fatah. Im just someone who wants to advance his career and education in a cool environment.
70. #62
Gazan ,   Gaza city,Palestine   (01.23.09)
Palestine wasn't its own independent country. It was a part of the Levant. The Levant was a part of the Arab as well as the Turkish empire for more than a thousand years. Russia is a very massive country. Its a federation that is made up of several states such as Dagistan for example. people who live in these states share the same spirit,language, and sort of culture. They are happy together. I dont think Dagistan wants to be its own independent country. However, imagine if for example China wants to occupy Dagistan, do you think people in that small state will shut up and take it even if Russia gives it away. I don't think so. This is what happened to the Palestinian people. They had homes,farms,lands. and gradually they lost these lands and properties and found themselves forced to flee to safer areas to protect their lives. The palestinian people are descendants of original Levant and arab people who lived there for more than a thousand year. on the other hand, the nowadays Israelis are made up of immigrants coming from every corner of the world (Russia,Ukraine,England,Bulgaria,Iran,Tunisia,etc). Having said that, dont you think we deserve our own independent country? Most of the Palestinians would recognize Israel/s right of security as long as Israel doesnt use violence and collective punishment against them.
71. #65 Smith: As a wise mathematician once said:
GUH   (01.23.09)
Kiss my Angle-Side-Side.
72. may be it has backfired....
jerusalem   (01.23.09)
the fact that israel has kept the opposing side disproportionate. may be if they had the same artillery or were atleast free to get them, then may be israel will be looked at with a little more sympathy, or at least believed when they say that they are "defending themselves." hamas is looked at as an organization defending itself from being occupied and lost-like the indians. israel, believe it or not, is looked at as a people saved from extermination of hitler and brought, against the will of the people already in the land where the british has brought the jewish people, in which has been given artillery and assistance by the british to overtake the land (which is illegal) of the people already living on that land-i will call them palestinians, since that is the name of which they want to be recognized and to save time and space. lets not mention that there is no other place in the world that is still under the title "occupying force" and "occupied peoples" except in israel, despite its flowery words and boasts of "democracy" and all that other bs about integrated/ing the arab population. not to mention, how many times does this have to be said in one way or another? do you think with the passing of time people will forget? well i hope that you have you (final, hopefully) answer. just a suggestion
73. What was the role of the blockade?
Khaled ,   Jordan   (01.23.09)
It cold very well be that Hamas's rockets fired are war crimes if they were fired at civilians. Nonetheless, so would be the dispropotionate reaction that harmed somany civilans in the name of teaching the Arabs a lesson. I have a theory, that Hamas uses these rockets to provoke a change in the status quo in the hope of lifiting the blockade. Does that seem plausable to anyone?
74. Make your pick now: War or Peace?
Hicham ,   France   (01.23.09)
The Palestinian people have been deprived of their land and rights. They've been exposed to different totures and sufferings so far. They've always poorly, defended themselves, as far as the military equipment is concerned, within the legal limits. There have been a number of victims on your side, but compare it to the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people and particularly on GAZA poeple lately and you'll see a tremendous difference - if your subjectivity is not overwhelming. HAMAS has the right to defend the nation and the land and retaliate when Israel encroaches on the land or slaughters the innocent population. What happened a couple of weeks ago in GAZA, will feed feelings of hatred and make the Peace process hard to resume especially, both sides have unqualified reps for such a big mission. Try from your side to create a dialogue with HAMAS, a serious one, and you'll see that you'll be talking to loyal people and not to cowards - you'll then notice who's not willing to achieve peace. The HAMAS goverment saw its victory thwarted shortly after the elections both internally and externally, which proves that a weak government was needed to attain purely somebody's else objectives - a Palestinian government whose top members long to kiss the cheeks and give hugs and not look into serious matters the people is expecting. If you really care about peace, look for the good side to negotiate with; It's not a hard puzzle. We'll spare many lives on both sides if we do that! No need to go into bouts of anger or trance. Let the brain and heart function coherently.
75. The truth is
(01.24.09)
Half the people on this board are directly saying that Israel does not have the right to defend itself. The only way Israel will get the approval and support of the international community is to roll over and die. You cannot talk sense or logic to ignorant anti-Semites who are blinded by deeply rooted prejudices and hatred.They aren't interested in the truth; they simply don't want Israel to exist and will twist any situation to make Israel the bad guy.
76. #30
(01.24.09)
Your comment shows your ignorance about Jewish history and tradition. Coming from Argentina it is not at all surprising that you don't believe in the native population having rights to the land. Menos mal que los españoles mataron a todos los indígenas del territorio para que no tengas que preocuparte nunca de eso, no?
77. #9 don't u wish, it's reading witiless warronger
God killed them all ,   3000 years ago   (01.24.09)
78. war crime of hamas
Jarusza ,   Potsdam; Germany   (01.24.09)
Yes it is difficult to get up-to-date to news in Israel. Every time Israel makes De- escalation movements - they are not tracked by media. If Israel goes into Gaza with army - it is all above in every paper. Till I have heard an official statement from Hamas accepting Isreal and to build up a neighbor in Gaza - I do not think there should be any independence for Gaza.
79. #5Abdel Karim Salim
Eva ,   Italy   (01.25.09)
Thank you for your post, as it is the example why decent people should stand up and condemn Hamas and cronies for their warcrime and warmongering,I e-mailed it to all in my mailing list so that they realize !!of what kind of people Israelis are are facing
80. An eye for an eye leaves us all blind
LvG ,   UK   (01.25.09)
The article uses the argument that if one party uses war crimes, the other can too. Two wrongs do not make a right. And of course as Gandhi stated 'en eye-for-an-eye' leaves us all blind. Some short term goals may have been achieved, but the next generation of Palestinians that believe only violence presents the way forward has been born. Israel is busy creating it's own long term problem.....
81. When is a terrorist not a terrorist?
Stefano ,   London, England.   (01.25.09)
Israel’s government would like the world to believe that Hamas launched its Qassam rockets because that is what terrorists do and Hamas is a generic terrorist group. In fact, Hamas is no more a ‘terror organisation’ (Israel’s preferred term) than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons. According to Benny Morris, it was the Irgun that first targeted civilians. He writes in Righteous Victims that an upsurge of Arab terrorism in 1937 ‘triggered a wave of Irgun bombings against Arab crowds and buses, introducing a new dimension to the conflict’. He also documents atrocities committed during the 1948-49 war by the IDF, admitting in a 2004 interview, published in Ha’aretz, that material released by Israel’s Ministry of Defence showed that ‘there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought . . . In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them, and destroy the villages themselves.’ In a number of Palestinian villages and towns the IDF carried out organised executions of civilians. Asked by Ha’aretz whether he condemned the ethnic cleansing, Morris replied that he did not: A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on. In other words, when Jews target and kill innocent civilians to advance their national struggle, they are patriots. When their adversaries do so, they are terrorists.
82. stefano
israeli   (01.26.09)
i am not sure your numbers are correct, but even if they are, many palestinians escaped on their own accord from fear of the jews in 1948. i recently heard a story from an israeli woman whose grandfather in rehovot has offered a pact to the neighbouring village elders to look out for each other during the arab invasion in the independence war, when such a lot of arabs fled the country. he said to the village elders jews shan't throw you out, jews shall not fight you, you can stay, so long as you don't fight jews, and agree jews can stay. the elders repplied, we would like that, but the young people in the village won't allow it. i don't allways believe what leftists say, b.michael, whose article was published yesterday on ynet, thinks that suicide bombers and other suicide terrorists perpotrate their acts due to melancholy. he, for example, gives terrorists psychological reasoning to somehow understand their dispicable acts. leftists in israel are trying to create a diversity of opinions, they don't understand, that whatever they do, so long as they live in israel, they shall be targeted by arabs and by antisemites all the same.
83. Defining War Crimes
Joseph ,   London UK   (01.28.09)
From my limited knowledge I understand that it violates the Geneva Conventions to use civilian locations for military operations -- AND that resultant civilian deaths are the responsibility of those who have used the human shields, i.e. Hamas. Hamas headquarters appear to have been in a bunker under Shifas Hospital, knowing they were safe from Israeli attack. I suppose terrorists are exemprt from international law, Geneva Conventions etc.
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