Jewish Scene
Women worshippers stir row at Western Wall
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 25.02.09, 18:43
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
85 Talkbacks for this article
1. The new 'women in black" organization
m   (02.25.09)
One succeeded to implant Hezbolla in the north and this one has a larger goal, destroy Judaism, but no worry, we will survive them too.
2. The problem is not the Halakha
Besalel ,   Kew Gardens, NY   (02.25.09)
The Halakha allows women to wear Teffilin (Rashi's daughters wore it, for example). It allows women to read from the Torah (a famous psak from the Rishon Mordechai). Talit is a little problematic because it is not a holy item but an article of clothing, which is designed only for men to wear but I'm sure there are womens' clothing that can use Tzitzit. So the problem is not the Halakha. The problem is that the Reform movement wants to use this as a springboard to tear down the Halakha. The reform movement is not interested in upholding ANY halacha as it does not believe the Halakha to be divine. Any attempt to tear down Halakha at the Western Wall should not be allowed or even tolerated.
3. Let them be Jews..
Simon Williams ,   Malha, Jerusalem   (02.25.09)
I think it is a disgrace for people to even question the style of worship carried out by these women, they should be respected -- and there should be no question of where they can prayer -- they have equal right to pray by the Kotel as a religious Jew dressed in the garb of old Europe (a forgotten era). Can't people just realise --- that we are all Jews and that is it, one people.. one identity.. whether we dress like a relic from the history books, live in modern but religious cacophony or reform.. we are one! get over it!
4. How come those people don't show such outrage when ...
Nick Sporek ,   Jerusalem Israel   (02.25.09)
people (Jews and non-Jews) violate Shabbat or the other high holidays??? For example: Taking photos, smoking, talking on cell phones Where have their priorities gone? They get mad at women that want to be closer to GOD but they leave the one's that totally desecrate the halacha alone. I don't pray there any more for that reason. I don't need my picture taken on Yom Kippur and I don't think that I should have to be the one to remind people every 2 minutes what the rules are. You have to wonder what is there motivation sometimes. Maybe they just want to keep those tourist $$$ coming in.
5. show respect pray at the Kotel but not like this
zionist forever   (02.25.09)
They are making prayer a political issue. If they want to go to a reform synagogue and do their thing there then they are more than welcome but at the Kotel Halacha should be observed that means men wear the talit and read Torah. Women can pray from a sidur & put their prayers in the wall but they should accept that even if they don''t like it many jews find insulting the idea of women doing this and the Kotel is not a site for religious politics. Its not about dictating to them how to live their lives in private but to consider other peoples views at the Kotel. Out of respect even non jews are asked to cover their head at the Kotel so time to bring in a rule formerly banning women from wearing a talit and reading from a Torah there out of respect to the majority. You might like to walk around your home naked but you wouldn't do it in the street because there are other people who find it insulting and its time these women took into account the beliefs of the jews who observe halacha.
6. 1 Samuel 15:22 and "Jewish Feminists"
Joe ,   Ramat Gan   (02.25.09)
"And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." Why don't "Jewish Feminists" understand that both men and women have their place within Judaism and to step beyond the bounds of their roles is to incur guilt? Whatever happened to Yirat Het? As regards women and Tallitot, I suppose they think that the prohibition for men wearing women's clothing and women wearing men's clothing just doesn't apply to them. Again, whatever happened to Yirat Het?
7. Hey! The one in the middle is wearing an "Orthodox" tallit.
Michael ,   Galut   (02.25.09)
Just goes to show, even many Reform/Conservative people wear the full tallit/ "prayer shawl." So should everybody! The tiny little scarf ones are an invention of recent history, because people thought it was more "up to date." All around the world Jewish communities who have had little contact wear the full tallit. Take a look at the video of the Jews arriving from Yemen. All Sefardic Jews and all Ashkenazic Jews wore the long tallit 200 years ago, 500 years ago, 2000 years ago, and probably 3000 years ago. Get with it! Don't wear those silly things. Learn from that "feminist" woman in the center. If she wears a full tallit, so should you!
8. Clowns!
John ,   USA   (02.25.09)
9. Faith & women
Rashid ,   Palestine   (02.25.09)
You see... we have no such broblems. In our society, women are covered, not heard. They are in the kitchen, so we have no such broblems. You might like to learn from us.
10. What is on the other side of the wall?
(02.25.09)
Oh how the love overflows at the Wall of separation. Mashiach must be weeping.
11. The women offended? Achum, Muslims ON the Temple Mount.
David ,   Boston, USA   (02.25.09)
I think the Western Wall Rabbi should be more concerned with the Muslims ON the Temple Mount desecrating the Holy of Holies than JEWISH women praying at the Wall.
12. They are grotesque,in my opinion
Keren ,   Israel-SP   (02.25.09)
The fit better in the gay movement ,I think. Clowns!
13. Remember how it all started
Jessu ,   IL   (02.25.09)
He was a jewish man also with bizzare ideas. Then twelve people followed him. Using sophisticate marketing methods, his followers sold the idea to Rome, then to all of Europe. Percecussions and pogroms followed. Missionaries took the idea to other lands, followed by the inquisition,right through the holocaust, UN anti Israel bias, archibishop Williamson, etc.., History will tell what a disaster these women are going to bring on the "other half of the jewish people" - Again!
14. The real problem is the kippa
adam eliyahu   (02.25.09)
Before I became Orthodox, I sided with the feminists. Now I look at it and realize that they are doing something without even thinking about it. Tallis and tefillin is okay for a woman halachically. The problem is turning them into a form of protest. The kippa is confusing. It is a man's garment. I see that a few of these women actually cover their hair halachically. These women have a valid point. They are saying that they want torah in their lives because they love torah. The others are saying that they want to disregard torah, treat it any way they want. That is disrepectful and ignoratn, not so worthy of respect. But the absurdity is they demand respect and recognition from the orthodox after they, the women, totally and intentionally disresp[ect what the orthodox value most.
15. propaganda or BS??
eliezer ,   jerusalem   (02.25.09)
Did these women come to pray to the Almighty or make scene? Did they come with the idea of respecting the feelings of those assembled there or to make a statement? The answer is obvious and clear. They came to make a demonstration, to make news, to show how un-Reform the Orthodox really are. Let them first be respectful of others, let them first desire to offer a heart felt prayer to G-d that He should help them, then perhaps we can take this seriously!
16. Women Can Pray With D'Oraita And Other Items
Brana Lobel ,   Israel   (02.25.09)
None of what the Rabbi objects to is forbidden to women and in fact there is information to prove that some women in the Second Temple era wore tefillin in public. Please note that he said "local minhag". A local minhag can be changed when there is enough of a critical mass to change it. I hope it does and that it is not spearheaded by IRAC or another organization with destructive motives but by Orthodox women and men. So let's stand together for those who understand that the Torah and Halacha are for everyone, and that in this day and age that includes educated women. All women can participate, but only educated women will know what they are doing. It hurts my feelings not to be able to wear a tallit in a synagogue. I hope to follow in the tradition of many Jewish women who did not simply stay inside their homes, including Devorah, Miriam, Rachel, Hulda, and the unnamed daughters of Shallum ben Hallohesh who together with their father, officer over half the district of Jerusalem, helped rebuild the western wall of the city under Nechemya (N 3:12).
17. Western wall is becomming symbol of idolatry.
Joel Burstein ,   Jerusalem   (02.25.09)
The Rabbi assigned to the western wall is making such a fuss one should now think that simply going to the wall is tantamount to idolatry. How can one desecrate a rock wall? Who says it is unlawful for women to wear tallit and tefillin? It is only not mitzvot. The Rabbinate will be ruin of the Jewish people.
18. #2- Loved your comment. Very insightful.
LEE ,   NY, USA   (02.25.09)
19. They dont belong there!
Barney ,   Frankfurt/Main   (02.25.09)
Their husbands should learn to keep them in the kitchen and focus on their duties without interfering the men. Its a mockery. You dont see men running around in skirts do you???
20. Has nothing to do with praying
Moriah ,   sacramento, USA   (02.25.09)
It has everything to do with tearing down Judaism. If they cared so much about prayer , why'd they eliminate and water down so much of it? No, they are saying "we can do this if we want to." Next they'll say, why can't a male homosexual daven on the women's side? Then, A female trangendered into a man should be able to daven on the men's side. ..And what's all this discrimination about clothing-- if I want to daven naked with nothing but army boots why can't I? This has nothing to do with davening or connecting with Hashen -- It's a childish rebellion they never grow out of --Oppositional Defiance Syndrome..
21. Reform Provocation
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (02.25.09)
Dear Ladies, Not nice. Now, go away. Regards,
22. Holy Temple
Yaakov ,   Serious Galut   (02.25.09)
The only importance attached to this massive wall of stone is that it is the remainder of the immense Holy Temple of the G-d of Israel that once stood there. Even during the Temple eras, the Jews had it clear: We do not revere the Temple itself, but rather, the One Who Dwells within it - as per His own oft repeated declaration in the Torah. Ladies, if you revere the remnant, it is because you revere the Holy Temple - and the G-d of Israel. But the Holy Temple was the most "ultra-orthodox" location in Israel!! Why, the Great Sanhedrin sat at the side of the Courtyard, parallel to the main Altar of G-d. The women did not pray there with talit and tefilin; they did not read from the Torah. Only the men did that - a number of times a day, actually (the daily "ma'amadot"). And among those who performed the actual service (the duties of the Kohanim; the singing of the Levites; and the prayers and Torah reading of the Israelite delegations), only male participants were allowed (even they were selected with great care). The "Women's" Courtyard (at a greater distance from the Sanctuary than the "Israelite" Courtyard) was named after the elaborate balconies built for the women on Sukkot; the men (only the Sages actually - most men also only watched from the sides) danced, while the women watched from above. All this is the "custom of the place." If you do not revere G-d's Holy Temple and its practices, then why come to the Kotel (just one of its walls) at all?? This not the place for "reform"; the ancient stones remain unchanged; the ancient customs of Israel remain unchanged; for "Ani Hashem; Lo Shaniti" - "I am G-d; I do not change - and you, Israel, will not be eradicated!" There is so much a man, woman or child can do to please G-d, each in their own ways, if they wish. Why come to the Kotel to step on G-d's toes - and blame the men?? Am Yisrael Chai!
23. Women from abroad come here to tell us, Israeli women, how
Yardena   (02.25.09)
to conduct our lives At the very least, these Reform women should learn Hebrew. But more so, they should live here, experience life in our people's homeland, learn to relate to the various components in our society and be tollerent to one another. Then and only then will I respect their views. And when that day comes, I too will be in a position to say: turn the Kotel back into the Kotel that it used to be, away from Beit Knesset that it is at present time. But I can't say and do so with women who are here for ten days once every seven years, because I simply don't respect them in their action.
24. Women of the Wall
Rahel ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (02.25.09)
As one of the women who led this morning's prayer service, I would like to make it clear that that is what it was: a prayer service. What a pity that the media focused on the negative aspect, which was in fact very slight, and ignored the overwhelmingly positive one -- our vital and beautiful prayer at Judaism's holiest accessible site. May we all merit to have a joyous month of Adar and a wonderful Purim.
25. Western Wall
Miriam Leah ,   Yerushalayim, ISRAEL   (02.25.09)
Good for them! I wish I had known about it; I would have been there too. I remember when the Wall was not an Orthodox synagogue. My son had his bar mitzvah there Jan. 1972. It was his own idea and we had a mixed group of attendees and it was lovely. Halacha was not handed down to Moses on Sinai. It's a creation of the rabbis and thus can be amended to reflect modern thinking. Kol haKavod Women of the Wall!
26. Bravo! Men and women are equals!
Gavriel ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (02.25.09)
Men and women are equal members of the Jewish people. Separation of sexes in Ortodox synagogues or at the Western Wall, is an old "custom" not (!) rooted in Torah. It's a heritage of rabbinic orders incorporated in Halacha. Ortodox Jewsih Law needs reforms in order to grant women equality in life. The State of Israel must grant freedom of religion for all its citizens and recognize all the existing streams of Judaism. Kol Hakavod, Anat Hoffmann!
27. you can learn from us ..
ALI ,   Cleveland   (02.25.09)
in Makka ,or Madina ..an average of 500,000 gather for each prayer ..5 times a day ..and 3 milion in the day of Feast of Ramadan or Sacrifize .. apart from accasional accidents ...you can hear a pin drop .. i was there .
28. Oye! If Chana mother of Samuel were around...
(02.25.09)
and tired to pray by moving her lips the goodly rabbi of the wall would probably have her excommunicated! How is it that these men, mere mortals have placed themselves so far above the G-d of Israel!? So very sad
29. Oh pleese, a no brainer.....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (02.25.09)
These woman have a right to wear tallitim and kiopt and chant torah at the Kotel. Period. They are harming NOBODY.
30. #23 - Sorry Yardena....
Andy ,   ramat hasharon   (02.25.09)
The kotel belongs to ALL Jews - not just Israeli Jews. And nobody says you have to respect them....all they want is the right to wear talitim and kippot and chant Torah at the wall. Don't respect them if you don't want. Who cares?
Next talkbacks
Back to article