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Kitniyot – a Karaite custom?
Rabbi David Bar-Hayim
Published: 11.04.09, 22:57
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1. Karaites
eddie ,   London UK   (04.12.09)
I have heard the lecture that this article was based on. However, Karaites simply carried out experiments on kinds of grains, to see if they could become Chametz. The Karaites , as far as I know, did no consider legumes as chametz, btu some would consider Vinegar as such esp as it is called Chimmoutz, same consonants as Chametz.
2. Karaites Eat Kitniyot
Nehemia ,   Jerusalem   (04.12.09)
The theory that the Ashkenazic ban on kitniyot during Passover has a Karaite origin holds no water. It is true that some (although not all) Karaites refrain from eating cheeses and wines during Passover because they ferment. This is because the Hebrew word for fermentation is derived from the same root as chametz (leaven). However, these same Karaites eat rice, peanuts, legumes, and other things categorized as kitniyot. There have never been any Karaites who avoided eating kitniyot. This is a purely rabbinical prohibition.
3. The Karaite Kitniyos Konnection
observer   (04.12.09)
The approximate dating of the edict is correct: it is attributed to Rabeinu Tam (Rahi's grandson) d. 1171. If it is true that the Parisian scholars mentioned did not accept it - they lived up to a century after RT - it would imply that his ruling took time to become a general practice. The attempt to claim that the basis of the ruling is because of a mistaken belief that kitniyos ferment, is based on a misunderstanding of the text and context of the quote. The Talmud states clearly that kityios ferments - rather, goes sour - when leavened, and that terminology is used in that context, not to mean that it leavens, but that it could be mistaken for leavened food in some circumstances. One correction is necessary re the author of the Tur. He was apparently born in Germany, but his formative years were spent in Spain and that's where he wrote the above work. He was no longer a 'German' by that time and does not reflect their views at all. However: Were there Karaites in France during that period? Not that we know of. So how could a custom jump continents and centuries as proposed? An easier explanation is along the lines of that cited by the Baghdadi scholar the author of the Ben Ish Hai, that after discovering wheat amongst rice, some Baghdadi families stopped eating rice! This custom would spread through intermarriage and after a few centuries could become general practice. No need for such a far-fetched and nigh impossible theory as the karaite connection.
4. it's a fact that karaites are not jews
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (04.12.09)
these guys are no more jewish than messianics due to their rejection of rabbinic tradition. just ask the rabbis, they are apostate just like messianics.
5. Kytnyot
Debbie ,   Rome   (04.12.09)
I'm not Ashkenazi but I know why not to eat Kytnyot during Pessach became a custom.
6. Karaites are not Jews from the land of Israel.
(04.12.09)
They are originally Turks and converted to Judaism out of political reasons like Khazar Turks. Karaites did not learn Judaism from Jews and Torah initially. Therefore, Karaites cannot be expected to follow exactly the same tradition as Middle East/Land of Israel originated Jews' traditions. Even today among Turks in Turkic countries and in Turkey Karay/Karai is one of the most common family names.
7. Kitniyos in the Gemara
Eliyahu ,   Eretz Yisrael   (04.12.09)
The Vilna Gaon (Hagaos HaGra) cites a source for this custom. The Gemorrah in Pesachim (40b) notes that Rava objected to the workers of the Raish Gelusa (the Exilarch) cooking a food called chasisi on Pesach, since it was wont to be confused with chametz. The Tosefos explain that, according to the Aruch, chasisi are lentils, and thus, argues the Gra, establishes the basis for the concern of kitniyot
8. Kitniyot: dumb minhag that should be abolished
Besalel ,   Kew Gardens, NY   (04.12.09)
Not only Ashkenazim have adopted this custom and many Sefaradic communities refrain from kitniyot in some form or another. Our Chachamim, however, knew when it was necessary to step up a prohibition in order to avoid confusion. For example, the Chachamim told us to avoid chicken and meat because we may become confused and eat meat and milk together. If the Chachamim did not believe that kitniyot will be confused for chametz, who are we to add to the Torah? It is a violation of the Torah to add to it and it is a positive commandment to be happy on Pesach, both of which are trampled upon by this kitniyot minhag. Minhag shares the same jewish letters as gehinom for a reason, sometimes.
9. On the spread of this "minhag shtut"
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (04.12.09)
observer suggest that, based on the Ben Ish Hai's suggestion, "some Baghdadi families stopped eating rice! This custom would spread through intermarriage and after a few centuries could become general practice." It's true that some Baghdadi Jews adopted the prohibition against kitniyot. But the suggestion that intermarriage aided its spread to the Ashkenazi communities is preposterous. It presumes that Baghdadis were intermarrying with French Jews, but not those in the countries closer to them geographically and culturally. It is however the case that many Moroccans do not eat rice either, no doubt again due to French influence. Also ridiculous is the suggestion (by #6) that Karaites are "originally Turks and converted to Judaism out of political reasons like Khazar Turks." Jews have never been a people of one mind. The Sadducees also rejected the Pharisaic notion of an Oral Law, so their "heresy" was hardly original. But in their analytic and scholarly traditions, they were nonetheless very "rabbinic".
10. Bar Hayim
Moish ,   Jerusalem   (04.12.09)
you forgot to mention his involvement in the nascent Sanhedrin AKA InsaneHedrin AKA Sinhedrin
11. Rabbi Bar-Hayim
Yitzi ,   Jerusalem   (04.12.09)
is not associated with the so-called Sanhedrin. He was briefly, some years ago, in the hope that it would define an agenda and act on it. This did not happen. Rav Bar-Hayim left. Regarding the Tur: it is true that he spent most of his life in Spain, but he was a proud Ashkenazi. Wherever an Ashkenazi minhag existed, he always mentions it. The same is true of his father the Rosh. In this instance, the Rosh simply states that kitniyot are permissible, and the Tur adds that it is not a wide spread custom. They would never have acted in this way if in Germany, their homeland, the custom was to refrain from these items. The Tur adds that this practice is unfounded and extreme. The Tur does not say such things about Ashkenazi practice. Quite the opposite, in fact.
12. Fermentation
Refael ,   Tel Aviv   (04.12.09)
Fermentation can occur wherever carbohydrates exist. It occurs in an extremely wide range of substances, including legumes and grain grasses such as rice. The Torah did not prohibit fermented foods, only chametz, a very narrow definition applied to 5 species of grain grass only. I have looked up some of the sources Rabbi Bar-Hayim quotes, and he is quite correct: the sources speak of kitniyot becoming chametz, which takes the narrow definition of the Halacha and widens it to include almost anything.
13. Rabbi David Bar-Hayim-Very Impressive!
Dan ,   Petach Tiqwa   (04.12.09)
I have never heard such a fascinating, learned rabbi! I heard many shiurim at www.machonshilo.org and was very impressed!
14. #9 reply
observer   (04.12.09)
Raymond misunderstood my suggestion that the French custom developed for the same reasons as the Baghdadi custom, not from it. The latter is informative because it appears to have arisen within or shortly before the Ben Ish Hai's lifetime, and its reason was well-known. I then added that the French custom, having been adopted by a restricted number of families, could easily have spread naturally through intermarriage within France and, from there to Germany (after the expulsion of the French Jews and their submergence into German society). The last factor is a fact: they were expelled and did largely assimilate into German society, taking their customs with them. If the German scholars had originally opposed the ruling, how come they now support it? Only through a shift in the population.Thus this custom would have become accepted over a longer period using a tried and tested process whereby marriage spreads customs. Simple - if you read what I wrote.
15. #6 reply
observer   (04.12.09)
The history of the Karaite heresy is well-documented from contemporary, or relatively contemporary records. The founder of the sect was a candidate for a high position in Babylonian society in the 8th century but was rejected by his colleagues as unsuitable. In response, he and a group of followers broke away to form a separate sect - of which he was the leader.
16. Machon Shilo Has Vision!
Binyamin ,   Tel Aviv   (04.13.09)
Kol HaKavod to Rabbi David Bar-Hayim and Machon Shilo for their excellent ideas. I can't get enough of the website at machonshilo.org
17. Rabbi Bar Hayim
eddie ,   London UK   (04.13.09)
Even as a Karaite myself, i must add that Rabbi Bar Hayim is one of the best rabbis around, and already sees the need to jettison some customs of the Oral Law. So perhaps his views on Kitniot are simply to disavow any affiliations he may have to Karaism.
18. to#17
Shlomo ,   Tel Aviv Israel   (04.13.09)
You are completely off. Rav Bar Hayim bases all his teachings and views on the Oral Law. The Mishna says that Kitniyot is not chamets and the Oral law clearly allows us to eat Rice.
19. to #3
Shlomo ,   Tel Aviv Israel   (04.13.09)
Actually it is quite possible that the minhag jumped continents over time. And for that reason it was known where it came from and where it originated and they had to come up with other reasons.
20. Incredible Rabbi-HaRav Bar-Hayim
Shimon ,   Tel Aviv   (04.13.09)
This is great Torah!
21. to #18
eddie ,   London UK   (04.13.09)
Aha, but dont the Rabbis say that any later teachig of a Talmid hacham or minhag, was all originally revealed to Moses at Sinai? Plus, the Rabbi supports the Yerushalmi talmud, and is quite radical in some of his halacha. I am not saying he is a Karaite, but he is making progress, and that is good!
22. rabbi?
observer   (04.13.09)
can't judge non-rabbinical faith's taboo as halal (kosher). After emergence of Islam, Karaites could no longer accept post-scriptural interpretations of the Bible that changed the message of God's law. Jewish dietary laws are strictly observed by Karaites. They reigned in Palestine since the ninth century til the Crusader era. kicked in the slums, according to halakic criteria, they are deprived from intermarriage with other Jews.
23. #19 reply
observer   (04.13.09)
Can you provide a comparable example of a custom jumping continents? Trade routes between the ME and Europe during that period are well documented; even the names of scholars who travelled between the two centres are known. They must have brought back customs, and some are known to us. Rashi states that French prayer customs derive from Palestine, so we can at least refer to a known source. Rokeach states that German prayer customs derive from Babylon and provides a detailed description how they arrived in Germany. In the case of the ban on kiyniyos, though, there is no known precedent anywhere, and almost universal condemnation from neighbouring countries (Germany, Provence Spain). Thus it is most reasonable to accept the given explanation that the custom actually started in France. To claim a Karaite source, one would first have to prove some connection, for which no such documentation exists. Frankly the suggestion is hair-brained to say the least and appears to be an attempt to gain notoriety, in tried and tested academic fashion. However this is not the way Torah is learned. The idea that a person may adopt a restriction that flies in the face of Talmudic ruling is well established. A good example is that of not eating meat after hard cheese. R Meir of Rothenburg (d. 1293) - the greatest of the post-tosephist generation - writes that he used to make fun of the custom until he discovered cheese stuck between his teeth whilst eating meat. He then adopted it himself as a personal stringency. Today it is the accepted halachic practice, although R Shlomo Luria, a contemporary of the Beys Yosef and Rema, decries it and only permits it in a similar instance to that of R Meir Rothenburg. I see something similar happening in the case of kitniyos, and there is certainly no need to seek far-fetched theories that have no basis in fact.
24. Kitneyot
zznhl   (04.13.09)
It can also be claimed that in cold northern and eastern Europe, at the time of the sages, that the source of raw kitneyot was in the hands of "goyim" and that it was almost impossible to control the production of them for the purpose of ensuring cashrut for pesach. A blanket edict would have been ordered on this valid pretext to prevent unknowingly eating uncontroled food during Pesach.
25. # 6
J.K. ,   Brooklyn USA   (04.13.09)
You must be mixing up the Dunamies,followers of shabtay Tzvi in Turkey,who converted to islam but still maintaint some Jewish customes,with the karaites whos origin is Babylonia-Iraq.The word Karaite means;folower of the Script, rejection of the oral tradition,which is the Talmud.It is believed the movement started when the Reish Galita (Exaliard) died, he had no sons,so his nephew was chosen as the new leader,his brother David ben Anan believed that the post belongs to him,and rebeled against the decision,he was inprisoned and sentenced to death as a rebel,in prison sombody advised him that if he starts a new religion he will not be considered a Rebel,and that ,what he did.Relations between Karaites and Talmudic Jews varied ,in the middle east they were tense,while in Europe,Talmudic Jews did not consider them Jews.In Russia a famos balerina,Maya Plasitskaya was a Karaite Jew.During WW 2 the Germans did not consider them Jews,so,they were not killed.In Egypt in the 50s 2 Karaite Jews were hanged for spying for Israel;DR Moshe Marzok and Shmuel Azar ZL.the center for the Karaites was Egypt,most emigrated to Israel and settled in Ramla and Hulon.I don't know their numbers today.
26. To eddie #21
Shlomo ,   Tel Aviv   (04.13.09)
NO. The Rabbis do NOT say that later teaching of a talmid Chacham was revealed at Sinai. That is a major mistake to say this. I would recommend reading the Rambam's introduction to the Mishna/Talmud where he explains the Oral Law very clearly. You are right that Rav Bar Hayim is making excellent progress, but not towards becoming a karite chas ve shalom but rather getting rid of Galuth Mentality and minhagim.
27. jumping continents - to observer
Shlomo ,   Tel Aviv   (04.13.09)
You gave examples yourself. Another example you may not know of is non Glat meat. The ashkenazi chachamim did not even know where this came from. They just knew they had this minhag. But recently when we found writting from the Cairo Geniza we found out that these leniencies originated in Erets Israel. We also know that some of the early ashkenazim came from Erets Israel. Thus it makes sense. I don't know if the Karite theory for kitniyot is correct or not but it is certainly possible. It is quite possible that the minhag somehow made it to Eurupe and no one knew that it was a Karite custom. Initially it was not accepted but then it somehow spread. The process quite similar to what you describe in your example. The only thing is it may have started as a mistake. The fact is that the problem with Rice always existed before. There was nothing new.
28. Machon Shilo is Wonderful
Yitzchak ,   Lod   (04.13.09)
Machon Shilo has turned my Passover into a much more enjoyable holiday-because of HaRav David Bar-Hayim I now eat kitniyot and can derive more simcha from the chag. I also recommend his website at www.machonshilo.org
29. shlomo #26
eddie ,   london UK   (04.14.09)
Shlomo, i have heard this from every rabbi, and in every yeshiva. Every Chiddush that an advanced talmid chacham makes, was already revealed to Moses at sinai. Have u forgotten the story about Rabbi Akiva?
30. #3 - please cite your source for R. Tam
Velvel ,   silver spring   (04.14.09)
What is the source of this supposed 'edict' by Rabenu Tam? Please cite it. Thank you.
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