Opinion
The great betrayal
Shlomo Engel
Published: 30.04.09, 11:28
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
37 Talkbacks for this article
1. Why should our kids join a political army with anti_Israel
Brenda ,   Efrat   (04.30.09)
policies?
2. the symbolism of Israel flag
ghostq   (04.30.09)
must not drag to mud, just because it was convinient to shlomo, actually his daughter were arrested for braking the law, so like in every country the law binds and was implimented, and that a source of a great prid, "who managed to create a glorious country after emerging from the Shoah’s crematoria" this is the most rasiciest saying, considering the idea of jewish stat started way before WW1. he is no better than the palestinians who accuse Israel, the same words different people.
3. here here!
Dana   (04.30.09)
You're not alone in feeling that way Shlomo. I felt just the same during independence day.. its hard to be proud of a country that commits judenrein against itself, just so our enemies can kill more of our people with kassams. The Kadima & Sharon government were an embarrassment to this country and they only managed to damage and get us killed and wounded.
4. "I have a dream"
Yisraeli   (04.30.09)
there will come a time not to distant in the future when Israel will be run by faith based Jews making it for the first time a state run by Jews - Manhigut Yehudit. Unlike these pseudo Jews who work openly against theyre own people and their future, who are there just to serve foreign and self interests. I hope to live to see the day when these traitors of our people will be brought before a true court of justice and held accountable for all their decisions that brought our streets running with Jewish blood. To date these people act immune from any responsibility but I hope they will all soon be brought to account and here on earth not heaven. We so badly need to clean house.
5. It was not a mistake
Suphganiot   (04.30.09)
Nor was it a coordinated effort by the various arms of the state against its citizens. It was a one man only, Arik Sharon who hijjacked the government, the army, and the poeple of Israel to execute this foolish policy. Now we understand why he is too embarrassed to wake up from his slumber at Tel Hashomer.
6. THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE CELEBRATED, NO MATTER WHAT.
Tom ,   San Francisco   (04.30.09)
Your concerns are legitimate and shared by more than you think (in diaspora at least!). But it is by strengthening Israel's symbols of independence that a change within Israel will take place. By putting the flag back on your car during Independence day, you will indirectly weaken some of the evil forces that are part of the police forces in Israel and strengthen the state of Israel further. The State of Israel is not the police forces even though the police forces are part of the symbols of the state of Israel. I am happy to see a trend at Ynet news to let the voices of all Israel be expressed through your online newspaper. It is a good trend, as Israel is far from being represented by the Israeli political left only.
7. Understanding, not accepting
Ricardo Macher ,   KarneiShomron-Israel   (04.30.09)
Dear Shlomo, I do understand what you feel and what you felt (also my daughter was in Kfar Maimon) but I cannot accept your position. The Rambam in Mazejet Januka states clearly that we must praise the Lord even for governments far worse than these. The only answer is double our efforts, you don't reach perfection in one day, but we are far better that what we were 50 years ago. Fight Shlomo, teach your daughters and grandsons to give 100% and you will have done your part, this life is the narrow bridge Rabbi Nachman talks about, giving 100% and knowing that however, everything depends on him.
8. Impossibility of the settlement enterprise
Avi-former Sruggie ,   Israel   (04.30.09)
Perhaps it would be time for Mr. Engel to consider how much of our society really stands behind the Gush Emunim ideology & enterprise. Perhaps it is time to stop dreaming that an entire country dances according to Yesha-tune. Gaza and West Bank are not holier than all of the stachim of ancient Israel currently under Jordanian, Syrian or Lebanese sovereignity. If you're truly faithful to your vision you should start a war to conquer all of those old lands. It's our choice: to accept the facts of today or to continue following an old paradigm, to safeguard Israel or destroy it. To talkback #1: Why should we send our kids to defend and die for your settlements? For 280.000 in middle of 2.350.000 Arabs? Can't you see that only the numbers show the desperation of the whole Yesha enterprise? Not in my name.
9. betrayal - yourself
greg ,   hod hasharon   (04.30.09)
when you will start to understand that a State and government has got every right to do whatever it judges right to do as it has a much larger picture of the world, situation than you have, (even if it is a mistake) then you should be proud of your country and flag to host people like you who believe they are owed everything. tehn you will be also proud to exhibit your national flag since this very same country allows you to write your egoistic, restricted picture, articles in a newspaper. And then if you are again in jail, I will be glad to bring you made-in-israel oranges to you or your daughters because you have again resisted a decision democratically made by a democratic state. Again when israelis born here will have understood that democracy does not mean freedom of not being "betrayed" by your government ... then we will leave in an even better country.
10. Thank you, Mr. Engel!
Dorothea Killus ,   Loerrach, Germany   (04.30.09)
A spontaneous but very heartfelt "Thank you!", Mr. Engel - an angel in the Hebrew sense, a Mal'ach. For your contribution is not only a most honest one and of a rare openness without bitterness, but at the same time a refreshing testimony, for yourself and for your daughters - standing for surely many, many more. May it serve for and in an ongoing process of inner clarification as to what the unique values and convictions of a Medinat Jisrael are and shall be in a future, convictions which allow no compromise for a unique people such as yours is. Let me assure you that I, a theologian who has the highest esteem for your country, pray for you and your familiy and, in a greater frame, for the well-being of your whole people in realization of its of high calling - God's "firtst-born son" whom we from the nations owe so much.
11. #1
(04.30.09)
Because the YSM cowards could beat little Jewish girls only because the IDF protected them from the Hamas soldiers.
12. Greg from Hod Hasharon
Joseph ,   Israel   (04.30.09)
The government system you support, where the government can do whatever it wants is called facism. Mr Engel pointed out that the ethnic cleansing was not reached democratically. Mizna supported ethnic cleansing, and was defeated. Sharon later adopted Mizna's policies and asked the Likud to support him. The Likud did not support him and still Sharon undemocractically did the ethnic cleansing. And #8: we saw how our kids were dying to protect the settlements of Sderot and Ashkelon while your kids were supporting Hamas and calling the IDF criminals in Tel Aviv.
13. Avi #8: Engel makes valid points
Steve   (04.30.09)
We have been having this discussion about the propriety of celebrating Israel's Independence given what Israel's leaders have done in the name of achieving a phony peace with Israel's enemies. By any standard of measure, Ariel Sharon's "disengagement" was immoral; even criminal in my opinion. Avi, your argument, "If you're truly faithful to your vision you should start a war to conquer all of those old lands" - Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc., fails. The point being, Israel acquired these "old lands," Judea, Samaria, Gaza, east Jerusalem, the Golan Heights as a result of defensive wars. These are not "conquered" lands in the sense that white Europeans aggressively conquered the north American continent. They virtually feel into Israel's hands. Why should we give these precious "old lands" over to our enemies? To enemies who are dedicated to our annihilation?
14. greg #9: decisions made by democratic state
Steve   (04.30.09)
You charge Mr. Engel with resisting a decision democratically made by a democratic state. Let's not forget, the Nazi party arose in Germany largely as a result of democratic means. By your standard of measure, all those fine German men and women who resisted Hitler - many gave their lives - were wrong because they resisted a decision democraticallly made by a democratic state, i.e., the people. Without all the people who voted for the Nazi party, Hitler would never have become chancellor.
15. Dear Shlomo.....
Yonatan ,   Haifa   (04.30.09)
I symathize with your situation, and I was personally against the disengagement. With that being said, the settlers of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza are the cornerstone of modern Zionism. I believe that despite the feeling of betrayel, you should feel more of an obligation towards our country, then to your feelings. The belief in the land is only losing momentum, so despite what any of us may feel, there will be more disengagements, and a Pali state...maybe 2. Our obligation is to continue to believe in this land, state, and people, until the reality dawns on all our brothers, then we will be able to stand united on these issues.
16. For all the "it's the law" phoneys
moriah ,   sacramento, usa   (04.30.09)
Don't be so smug my friends. Your neighborhood may end up on the chopping block one day too. If you've been paying attention you know the Israeli govt. is more than willing to give away everything and get nothing in return for some ridiculous 'land for peace deal'. In English they say one thing, in Arabic they say, Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv , Jerusalem -- so don't get too comfortable. When it happens just remember -- IT'S THE LAW!
17. I am with you Shlomo
KACH 613 ,   JUDAH, ISRAEL   (04.30.09)
I will not put up the flag untill we are back in Gush Katif. I must say that I was in the U.S.A. by Cast Lead and I went out got a flag and put it on my car, but that was a time of war its diffrent.
18. Yonatan #15: Love for one's country
Steve   (04.30.09)
You wrote, Shlomo should feel more of an obligation towards our country. Is love for country the same as love for one's state? Can we not be grateful for the things the "State" affords us without "loving" all of its institutions and its authority which cowers in fear before our enemies? Shlomo says he loves his country. Country means one's land (Gaza for instance) and one's people. It can also refer to state but not necessarily. You wrote: "Our obligation is to continue to believe in this land, state, and people, until the reality dawns on all our brothers, then we will be able to stand united on these issues." I do not "believe" in this government per se. So long as this government (the "State") is determined to bow in fear before Israel's enemies, why should I believe in it? I believe in the land of Israel. I believe it is our inheritance, given to us by God; the land is our covenant. I identify with those who believe the land of Israel - all of it - belongs to the Jews in perpetuity. Why should I believe in those who hate everything I believe in? Why should Shlomo? Why do you?
19. Similar rationalizations as the Hareidim.
David ,   Montreal, Canada   (04.30.09)
It's a slippery slope, you'll end up Neturei Karta! Isreal is a democracy--if you don't like the policies of the government, elect a different one (but then again, I guess Israel has just done that). Mr Engle--does your "sense of betrayal" stop you for voting?
20. #8 and #12
Kravei Soldier ,   Tel Aviv   (04.30.09)
I served in Gaza before the disengament and during it. The selfishness of the Jews of gaza discust me. Israel was created to protect jews, too many people died for that reason. The bottom line is it is not safe for so little people to live sorounded by enemies. me and my friends to put our lives on the line to protect you. I joined the army to protect Jews and thats what i did. If your proud of your sons and daughters for throwing acid on soldiers and the aweful country whos flag you wont bare throws them in jail. wait till you see what god does with them. If you want to through the torah at me and say the land is holly I will slap you. I live in the present and in the present its not safe for Jews to live in Gaza.
21. #17 Kahane is dead
Avi-former Sruggie ,   Israel   (04.30.09)
If you want to return to Eretz Pilishtim (=Gaza) go and get a personal agreement with the Palestinians. I won't stop you...
22. Disengagement was best option
Realist   (04.30.09)
IDF soldiers no longer get killed in Gaza and Jews are still a majority in their own state (after disengaging from more than a million of Palestinians). I don't expect an ideologically blind person to mention that.
23. Joseph #12
Avi-former Sruggie ,   Israel   (04.30.09)
For 42 you've been comparing Israeli cities like Sderot or Ashqelon to WB or Gaza outposts. As previous supporter of the Yesha cause I say you once more: don't try to pull us all with your sinking boat! Begin, Netanyahu and Sharon have all showed where the place of Gush Emunim is.
24. #20 you post talks of things which did not happen
Jabadini   (04.30.09)
Jews lived in Gaza before 1948 for hundreds of years why should they not be allowed to live there today? is this not apartheid? Israel was created to protect Jews but ends up attacking them. So according to your theory with a few million Jews amongst 100's of millions of Muslims is a mistake and Israel should leave because they call for its destruction? Typical of TA you dont know the facts, talk crap and feel that you serving in the army makes you a saviour. The % of 'settlers' is way above the average in the army. Stay in TA and tell your friends they should have gone to the army also. You are proud of kicking Jews out of their homes illegally? The Jews in Judea and Sumaria are the ones keeping the missiles from reaching your home they are your defense. There was no acid thrown on soldiers it was shown to be lies. You are an idiot and its because of people like you that Israel is going through such a bad time. Leaving Gaza and N.WB told the world that Israel agrees it has no right to exist as the WB is one of the main justifications for Israel. Same policies as 60 years ago when the secular did what they could to save their own leaving the religious to die in Europe.. Attack the Religious and let them be killed.
25. #20 DO U BELIVE ISRAEL SHOULD BE A STATE?
KACH 613 ,   JUDAH, ISRAEL   (04.30.09)
You said "its not not safe for so little people to live sorounded by enemies" Well it sounds like you are NOT for the state of Israel in the first place!!! Its the same thing on a diffrent scale!!!
26. David #19: Your Haredim comparison fails
Steve   (04.30.09)
There was a piece the other day on YNet, written by Eliezer Hayon: "Why haredim don't honor Memorial Day" "Ultra-Orthodox don't participate in national Memorial, Independence Day not out of spite, but because these days mean nothing to them" Hayon wrote: "Do the haredim do so (not honor these days) out of alienation, disgust, or even wickedness? It appears not. The haredim do not celebrate or mark these holidays because they feel no connection to them. Most of them have never served in the army, and their parents did not take part in Israel's wars. Very few are the fallen, the injured or the combatants among the haredi family or neighborhood. So who have they got to remember and commemorate?" David, how in world can you compare this to Mr. Engel's situation? It is NOT a slippery slope to thinking people. Shlomo Engel loves his country. He served in Israel Defense Force, where he was wounded and where his son will soon serve. My goodness David. How can you write this nonsense? Good grief!
27. #20
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (04.30.09)
Stop repeating this libel. If you have any evidence that any Jew threw acid and can find even one policeman hurt by acid, please go to Mazuz and file a complaint. I assume you are just repeating the rumors you heard in the press. Just so you know, at the end it turned out that these were lies spread by lazy policemen who wanted to rest.
28. Shlomo, get over it and take back your country
Alienated US Jew   (05.01.09)
Think of millions of Americans who are witnessing daily how Obama destroys America (and the US-Israel friendship). These Americans are not bitter or defeated. All across the US, they are holding citizens' "Tea Party" protests (a la the Boston Tea Party of 1773). On American Independence Day on July 4, I can assure you these same people will be the ones waving the American flag. Shlomo, the only way to get over feeling betrayed is through political action. The results of the last Israeli election was a good start.
29. i think he do not love the country or he lies
nuha ,   jerusalem   (05.01.09)
once my mother was so angry left the home for a while i do not stop loving her becouse she is my mother . i love my country inspite of many mistakes of the governors and the citizens . becouse of that i think he is one of the two ===do not love or lie
30. That's what happens when you live in illegally-occupied land
Jacob ,   Cambridge, England   (05.01.09)
I look forward to the day when every other Israeli settler is similarly displaced from the land they illegally and imorally occupy. While I do feel sympathy for second-generation and later settlers, they should not be able to profit from their parents' crimes, and they have no right to keep the Palestinians homes. I do hope the Israeli government will compensate the second-generation settlers when it withdraws, though.
Next talkbacks
Back to article