Jewish Scene
Shas' female workers forced to wear full head covering
Ari Galahar
Published: 06.05.09, 10:25
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
70 Talkbacks for this article
31. Women in our society
Rabbi Cohen ,   Tel Aviv Israel   (05.06.09)
I do not understand, why are we telling our women to wear wigs on there heads ? During old times there was no wigs. Women were wearing scarves. And women must not work, women belong in the kitchen and in the bedroom.
32. #26 Leo
Lisa   (05.06.09)
it is one thing to wear proper business attire- but to force women to cover their heads or be fired- try this in the States? see what happens-. has anybody asked the women what they want to do? I just bet- not! IF the women want it- fine- their problem- if it is imposed on them by men who cannot control themselves- it is not ok. See the difference? mentioning pro-choice here is bad taste- not exactly the same as a scarf- is it? besides: would all the men and boys in this school have 'unchaste' thoughts because of seeing women's hair? Give me a break- have men so little self-control? Really!
33. Did you leave out something???
Aaron ,   Baltimore   (05.06.09)
All the female teachers are married? The entire article makes no sense since no one holds that unmarried women should cover their hair. Second, by banning "wigs" they are saying that teachers shouldn't spend a fortune on clothes, and should use the cheaper types of head coverings. They are being told to "dress down".
34. Re:
Lisa ,   USA   (05.06.09)
A GOVT FUNDED school cannot mandate religious dress for employess. This is a lawsuit in the making...
35. Lisa @ 32;
leo ,   USA   (05.06.09)
First, it is not US. Second, even in US private entities are in charge of these matters. See Jewish, Christian and Muslim schools. Third, I am not discussing motives related to this rule. Forth, when you will become a boy or a man then you'll tell me what I suppose to feel. Besides, you are not talking about controlling actions, which every one of us is capable of doing. You are talking about controlling thoughts. I personally never tried nor wish. Fifth, taste is subjective thing. Let's not waste time discussing taste for yours might not be as perfect as you think. PS. It was my mistake saying 'pro-choice'. I meant to say 'pro-life'.
36. #32 Lisa
Israel   (05.06.09)
"Proper business attire" may make sense to you. Head coverings make sense to Shas. Orthodox Jews have different values than you. How then, can you decide which values are appropriate for them? Confused... I am curious to know...What would happen if you substituted Shas with Mormons. Would your reaction be the same or would you be as opinionated of their way of life as you are to Shas followers?
37. #36 Israel
Lisa   (05.06.09)
opinionated is bot the same as having my own opinion: Am I allowed? I am also not the only one here questioning the validity of the rule. re Orthodox values: fine, I can respect that- but it looks to me that the teachers at the school are- either not orthodox- then what are they doing there? or: they are orthodox and they do not want to be told what to wear- IF there is a strict dresscode- then the school should provide a uniform for the teachers as well..... re Mormons: yes I would object if they told all of us to marry 10 wives I also do not want to be told by a muslim that I have to wear cover in my own country... #35 LEO: #1:Christian schools /I went to one) request uniforms- here in Spain the same- because they do not want rich kids to flaunt their designer clothes in front of the poorer kids- And all the kids wear the same regarding of religion and race- that is equality. The teachers do not wear provocative clothing. #4 re boys and men: you mean only Jewish boys are tempted by uncovered hair? All the million of non Jews in the world do not seem to have a big problem with this. It is a religious demand and all other arguments are moot. It has little to do with taste- A little secret: when I went to a convent school- we worked, very hard, studied, etc.... we had NO TIME to have 'unchaste' thoughts- . It was an interesting TB- as for taste, Leo_ I have pretty good taste you know- I am a designer. Any time you need some really good looking hats, LOL
38. Rabbi Cohen
Lisa   (05.06.09)
hello Rabbi, well spoken- I am glad you agree about the wigs- scarves ok- I suppose- you are wearing hats too- .... as for women in the kitchen: you forgot to add pregnant and barefoot. No need to reply I know what you are going to say- we have been there before, LOL.
39. Religious schools have the right to teach
shosh ,   s.o. soca usa   (05.06.09)
Judaism..Same as secular schools..Don't understang the "fofcing" women not to wear wigs it should be a matter of free choice..Does not wearing wigs nake these women less Jewish,not IMO. Schools whether secular or religious do impose dress codes,some unfair I must admit..Even here in the USA..Whoops forgot the countries that live under sharia law but that;s their decicion not ours.. Does this make the women who refuse to abide by these chauvanistic rules less Jewish? No wonder there sare so many secular Jews in Israel...
40. Israel should be not Iran!!!!! (end)
Daniel ,   Santiago ; Chie   (05.06.09)
41. File a lawsuit to stop this, no gov. funding for this
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (05.06.09)
insanity. Married women can't wear wigs? Total mind control and not justified by Torah. Observing Torah is righteous behavior but Shas is going the way of the taliban.
42. #37 Lisa
Israel   (05.06.09)
Orthodox schools have every right to implement dress codes. Those who do not agree to abide by these codes do not have to work for the schools. How can you compare requesting teachers to follow a dress code to an order to marry 10 wives? Sorry, I just don't get it...
43. Lisa @ 37
leo ,   USA   (05.06.09)
"#1:Christian schools /I went to one) request uniforms- here in Spain the same- because they do not want rich kids to flaunt their designer clothes in front of the poorer kids- And all the kids wear the same regarding of religion and race- that is equality. The teachers do not wear provocative clothing." You are clouding your mind with irrelevancies again. I repeat, what ever the reasons and justifications may be the bottom line - SCHOOL REQUIRES. Take it or leave it. "#4 re boys and men: you mean only Jewish boys are tempted by uncovered hair?" No, you mean it. "It is a religious demand and all other arguments are moot." This is private school and administration has right to set its own rules, religious or not. You have the right not to send your kids to that school or not to apply for work over there. "It has little to do with taste" Then why did you mention it? "A little secret: when I went to a convent school- we worked, very hard, studied, etc.... we had NO TIME to have 'unchaste' thoughts-." Really! OK, as a man let me let you on a secret - I was always on the hunt in my school older days and so did every other boy I knew. And interestingly enough, we still had enough time for all other activities including ... studying. But even that does not matter. Again you are confusing deeds with thought. "It was an interesting TB- as for taste, Leo_ I have pretty good taste you know- I am a designer. Any time you need some really good looking hats, LOL" I did not ask for your resume but if you insist, even if I will assume that you are the best designer in the World it does not mean I will like your taste and will necessarily hire you to do work for me. I am guessing, as a professional you already aware of this possibility.
44. #42
Lisa   (05.06.09)
sorry Israel if I did not make myself clear- the reference to the Mormons was to a question you asked , you wanted to know if Mormons was substituted for Shah's would I still object? I would- . I am assuming you think I am some sort of Christian nut- ? You are probably asking yourself why I am taking such an interest in this. Let me explain: although I am too young to have gone through the war- I lived with the aftermath- and I want you to know, that most Europeans are rather sensitive to anything that looks like an imposition- like forcing people to look different,- We remember people being singled out, forced to wear distinct clothing and such because they belonged to a different race, religion.... I am sure you understand exactly what I mean. We have worked long and hard to get laws in place to prohibit discrimination, racism, hate mongering etc. People have the freedom to voice their opinions as long as they don't harm anybody or incite hate.... I spent most of my life in Canada- were they practically invented political correctness. There is still a lot of room for improvement of course- and there is much work to be done, because some people are just slow learners. It surprises me, that certain groups within Israel are trying very hard to separate themselves, creating a rift, by for instance, asking for separate buses. Can you imagine what would happen if, let's say in Toronto, there were separate buses for Jews, Blacks, Italians etc.? If there were separate traincars in Europe for Orthodox Jews? or Roma? or Moroccons? Not too long ago, there were separate buses for Black people in the States? I lived there when it was still happening- it is degrading- I felt personally insulted by it...got almost thrown out of a restaurant because the black waiter refused to let in black customer, and I had the gall to argue.... Personally any person can wear or do whatever they wish- I have no problem with it- but when a politician or a religious person forces people to do things that are against the general rules of the land, human rights, against another country- then I have a problem. I want to know why, I ask questions- and I expect answers- this is the only way to learn and better understand.
45. 13 Ariel do us a favour!
gabriela ben ari ,   jerusalem   (05.06.09)
It has nothing to do with judaism. IT has everything to do with holier than thou arrogance. get it straight
46. I'm assuming they only require this of married women . . .
Michelle   (05.06.09)
Single women would not be included in this ruling, correct? Why doesn't YNet try to get the whole story??
47. A group promoting secularism should demand no kippas.
Michael ,   Galut   (05.06.09)
If there was a group teaching secularism (I mean, teaching that religion is wrong) wouldn't it make sense for them to demand that no teacher in their group wear a kippah? So too, if a teacher is teaching for a sefardic group that follows Rav Ovadia, it makes sense that while teaching they should have to follow (and thereby correctly represent) Rav Ovadia's halachic rulings.
48. Not logical, I take it back.
Michael ,   Galut   (05.06.09)
It's not logical, unless they are sefardi and teaching about sefardic halacha (which in Israel largely follows Rav Ovadia). Otherwise, they should be allowed to choose what they do. For instance, if they are ashkenazi, and teaching halacha to sefardic students, they still shouldn't have to cover their heads with scarfs.
49. Wigs
Yerach ,   Jerusalem,Israel   (05.07.09)
Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Moshe Feinstein,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Yaakov Kaminetsky,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Yitzchak Hutner,ZT"L,ZYA,HaRav J.B. Soloveichik,ZT"L,ZY"A,HaRav Aharon Soloveichik all the Ashkenazi gedolim of the last generation excluding the Hungarians all held that a wig was a proper & correct head covering for religious women. Rav Ovadia has absolutely no right to force Ashkenazi women to wear head scarves as opposed to wigs when the gedolei Ashkenaz not only allow it but in some cases hold a wig is a better head covering. Ariel Ben Yochanan of Kfar Tapuach FYI,Rebbitzin Libby Kahane wears a wig!!!!!
50. #49 Wigs
Lisa   (05.07.09)
question for Yerach: I have no personal interest in the debate, however- I would like to know: where did the idea come from to use wigs as a head cover for religious women- Europe, Russia, Middle east? Did they shave their own hair off? Why? Do they cover their own hair with a wig? Must be terrible hot and uncomfortable in a desert country. At what age- married only? In a way it does not make sense: by using a wig, the woman imitates her own hair- a well fitting wig looks real- at least a scarf is so obvious that even a blind man can see it and know that the woman is off-limits.. Seems a shame when the women in the Middle East have such beautiful hair, is that the problem?... If there is a choice between a wig and a scarf or a hat- ugly or not- a wig would not be my choice. Given that this is a man's religion as most are, Roman Catholic included, women don't have much say. Is there a logical explanation for this? I mean other than the Rebbe so and so said, which is an order not an explanation...just curious..
51. covering the head
philip max ,   usa   (05.07.09)
Head covering has no religious roots what-so-ever. Every nationality in the world covered their hair throughout history. The reason is simple. Lice! Yes LICE! When indoor plumbing was rare and people washed their hair once a month, if that often, there was a real chance of contracting lice from the fellow/gal next to you. The solution was to wear a head gear that prevented the lice from jumping from one person to another. Now, its gets a little complicated for Jews. as the Mohammedans, in the the year 935 AD, were the first to institute regulation on what type of head gear Jews should be wearing. The law stipulated that Jews wear a funny style of head gear in order to elicit rebuke and scorn by the public. This was done to humiliate and segregate the Jews from the Muslims. The reasons were that the Jews were smart,attractive ,and compelling and thus represented a threat to Islams' totalitarian rule in early Spain. in 1235 AD, Pope Innocent III copied these restrictions and imposed a dress code on the Jews. This horrible humiliation followed the Jews throughout Europe right through to the Holocaust era. The Jews, of course, took this on a a religious commandment. Nowhere in the Torah, Talmud or anywhere in Jewish law is there even a mention of required head gear (save the High Priest's attire on Yom Kippur). There is no requirement to wear this item for either man or women. Of course, there is custom. And here we can't deny religious authority, simply because the Rabbis conveniently ruled that custom is the Law. A kind of a catch-22 for Jews who want live by reason rather than fiats. In the early 20th century ,when indoor plumbing was becoming common-place, the heavy hats that the men wore, were no longer required for health reasons and the Yarmulke came into in own eventually morphing into a social/political statement of its own. So here we are, a political and social disability inflicted on our people becomes a "Jewish Law", and, of course, this involves all kinds of rigorous requirements of ritual observance. How ridiculous! The slavish command to wear any , let alone a specific, type of the head gear is a humiliating totalitarian imposition now taken over by the Rabbis for their own controlling reasons. if you belong to the Sect, you must follow the Sect. But, please always know what you are doing and why. This too is a commandment.
52. to #51
Susan ,   Kfar Saba   (05.07.09)
Lice like to jump onto clean hair. It has nothing to do with indoor plumbing.
53. #52 Susan
Lisa   (05.07.09)
indirectly it does thought. People had no indoor plumbing and had to fetch water from a spring or fountain, heat the water, etc..... most people had a bath maybe once or twice a year and washed their hair probably once a month or so- there was no proper flooring in houses either- so hygiene was not all that great- several people slept in the same bed, as many as it would hold- these were different times. Lice, fleas and other parasites were always present and illnesses were spread easily-. I am not sure if lice really care if the hair is clean or not- This was not only a poor people's problem, rich people had it too- . The rich could mask the stench and odor with perfumes and pomanders-. In the 17th cent the fancy wigs were crawling with lice- despite all the glamour. When I told my students at the University- they were shocked- we cannot imagine today, what life was like then. Life THEN in most countries was only about 100 or 150 years ago, in some countries it is still that way unfortunately. Just so you know: this was life for everybody, Jews, Christians, non- believers- at least in hygiene we have made some progress.
54. #13. BTW When did you convert to Judaism?
Jake   (05.07.09)
55. 48 Yerach - they did not give it blanket approval
S Judah ,   London   (05.07.09)
The Chasam Sofer was approached about the permissability of sheitals and he replied it was not permissable. However, when informed that women would not cover their hair at all, he allowed it. In recent times, some prominent rabbis such as Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach, Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv, and Rabbi Nissim Karelitz have declared that even if one says that wigs are permitted, modern wigs are Biblically forbidden since they are attractive and look like hair. The Sdei Chemed forbids a woman to wear a wig since it will appear that her hair is uncovered. This view is echoed by Rav Ovadia Yoseif (Yabia Omer E.H. 5:5), a view that he has stated in extremely strong terms in the past few years. The Ben Ish Hai also supports this view.
56. to #53
Susan ,   Kfar Saba   (05.07.09)
Oh, of course we have made progress. It was too difficult to take a bath. You had to carry in buckets of water from the well and heat it up over the fire. My point was that I don't think lice is the reason religious people wear a head covering, since lice jump on clean heads. Ask any mother of a young child in this country. Lice is a very common problem, even in the best of homes.
57. to #53 another thing.
Susan ,   Kfar Saba   (05.07.09)
I forgot to mention that in many cultures, including the Romans, Jews and Arabs, they had bathhouses where people would go about once a week.You can see elaborate Roman baths here in Ceaseria. Even Maimonides wrote about going to the bathhouse and he lived most of his life in Egypt. Roman bathhouses were a den of iniquity, a lot of homosexual stuff went on there. So, the early Christian church associated this immoral behavior with taking a bath and therefore discouraged bathing. Do you think rich people didn't have servants to prepare their baths? And yet many, even the European nobility rarely took a bath. Human health improved with simple hand washing in the late 19th or early 20th century. Before that people didn't even know there was a connection between cleanliness and disease.
58. Shas is right
Shira ,   NY B"H YERUSHALAYIM   (05.07.09)
YNet and most readers here are very quick to judge. It's common sense, Sepharadim hold that wigs are an assur form of covering hair thus if you work for a Sepharadi school system, you should follow sepharadi halacha and cover your hair with a scarf or hat, it's chinuch for the kids that you teach and work with. I am sure that these accusations of treats are exaggerated. and are these comments by he ladies real? As for yerach, all these Chachmei Ashkenaz did allow ladies to wear wigs, but do you remember what wigs USED to look like? Mops, straw, nothing beautiful, unlike today's wigs, looking so beautiful and most of them are totally NOT sanuah enough that Rav Elyashiv has said that they are not an acceptable form of covering hair anymore. As for the ladies who complained and accused Shas of being Islamic like, no one said they have to work in the school system, if they don't like it they can work elsewhere.
59. #52
philipmax ,   usa   (05.08.09)
Not an issue of clean hair or dirty hair. People don't like to pick up diseases from others whether its tranmitted by breathing or by standing next to someone contaminated with lice,vermin, or whatever. whatever one can do to avoid contamination they would do. scarves and hat were a solution not the solution. The fact that the Muslims and the Christians chose to degrade the Jews by the imposition of restrictions on the color and type type of headgear designated this instrument (hats) as having a special role in the life of African and European Jews. "The rest is commentary" as Rabbi Hillel would say.
60. Back to the past.....is this really neccessary?
Nicky ,   Israel   (05.08.09)
Hi there... I think it is time to wake up for you! I do not know, who you are...but your answer sounds so simple and intolerant!!! That shows, that you have no clue and you do not understand the female side. It is a great think to believe...but not like this....that is fanatic and not Right! If these women are going for the men to school to support...that show a lot! They like this and their job and they don't want to look for another job....just because of such ridiculous things... The think of a wearing a wig is already strange, but no to get the hair covered completely. Men are making this laws...they don't even ask the women if they like it...Look at them...they no just the Torah...no Mathematics..no modern things.....and this in the 21st century... And with all the new laws, do they really want to time travel to the past??? They should think forward for the future and that finally with the State of Israel to create a great, good, democratic and modern Jewish country.
Previous talkbacks
Next talkbacks
Back to article