Opinion
Getting it wrong with the pope
Isi Leibler
Published: 17.05.09, 19:32
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1. an important ally against anti semitism?
jack bauer   (05.18.09)
since when does an ally ask you to cut out your heart to give to a terrorist enemy?
2. History And Responsibility
Lee ,   Stewartstown, PA   (05.18.09)
Good article. I mostly agree with what you said. However, I take issue with this paragraph: "Nor do I minimize the centuries of bloody persecution of the Jews orchestrated by the Church which laid the foundations for the Holocaust." First of all, although Jewish history in the Christian world does include much persecution, it is inaccurate to depict it as consisting of constant oppression and violence everywhere. Most Jews during most time periods were not victims of pogroms, and Jewish individuals and communities often prospered despite existing hostility. Secondly, the popes actually opposed some of the most violent persecutions that did take place--during the Crusades and the Black Death. Finally, although it certainly didn't help, it is unclear that anti-Semitism in the Catholic Church was indispensable in making the Holocaust possible. People have been capable of terrible atrocities even without prejudiced religious teachings. If you are going to pin something so horrible on the church, you need proof, and proof is lacking where this is concerned.
3. If pope is not Zionist than why he believe in Jesus
e.m Jordan is Palse ,   s.f   (05.18.09)
Jesus was born in Israel and his parent were Jews, in all his life Jesus had follow the Judaism and once he have said he did not come to added any new rule to rules of Mosses beside Jesus also was the member of Sanhedrim and he was against the Roman Empire too, if Jesus was great Zionist than why pope should not follow the Jesus foot steps if he really believe in same Jesus that the entire Christians must support the State of Israel other wise they are believing in Jesus that never have been exist.
4. Amen
marvls ,   nyc   (05.18.09)
I agree with this 100%.
5. #2 Lee
Lisa   (05.18.09)
I agree with you. Most arguments brought forward in the past week were rumors. The rage against the Pope was provoked by mostly unresearched articles and statements. The general TBs cannot distinguish between Catholic Christians and sects and other Christian churches- neither do they care- it's all the same to them. While nobody denies that the Roman Catholic church has been guilty of many anti-semitic acts- not all can be blamed on it. Many persecution were political, as they still are- . It is unfair- and counter productive to blame an entire organisation- in this case the pope has been trying all his life to fight against anti-semitism- with success- and to call him anti-semitic is wrong. The righteous people have turned into self-righteous people comdemning, judging without proof- .
6. To: Lee at No. 2
Sarah ,   New York City, USA   (05.18.09)
If it's proof you want, I suggest you read James Carroll's "Constantine's Sword."
7. # 5 Lisa
Ben ,   Monroe USA   (05.18.09)
Since you find it necessary to defend the pope, I ask why do you ignore the FACT that this pope considers hitler's pope worthy of sainthood??? When the papacy requests, the Catholic world listens. Of course it could be that you too are willing for an anti-semite to be sainted by Catholicism. As a Jew, normally I don't care who or what is called a saint by the catholic world. However in this particular bit where a pope never opened his mouth to decry the murder of Europeans Jewry, it becomes a point where the current pope has left himself open to being defined as anti-semitic since he chose to call Pius XII a saint. Lisa if it swims like fish, if it smells like a fish, it probably IS A FISH.
8. Constantine's Sword
Lee ,   Stewartstown, PA, US   (05.18.09)
Sarah, Constantine's Sword is not a particularly good book, and does not demonstrate that the Catholic Church was responsible for the Holocaust.
9. Ben Google : pius xii beatification
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.18.09)
You will see that Benedict XVI has'nt signed yet the decree towards canonisation of pius XII , this in order to preserve good relations with the Jews . So Ben , try to make some research before writing , but it's probably too difficult for you with your ground zero kissing level
10. That the Catholic religion and church
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.18.09)
has influenced , and sometimes even organised , antisemitism , is without doubt sure . That people , causing the holocaust , were still unther this influence can't be denyed . From there to accuse the church of being directly responsible for the Holocaust is maybe not so serious . That some clergy were promotors of the Holocaust is sure , That other opposed it firmly is also certain . That Pius XII did'nt intervene openly , not even after the war where there was'nt any "danger" for the church anymore , who will and can deny it . But , how can Benedict , or any German of today , or any Spaniard , or any other , be responsible for actions comitted by their ancestors ?
11. To: Lee at No. 8
Sarah ,   New York City, USA   (05.18.09)
What do you think might have happened in intensely Roman Catholic Poland, Hungary and Austria had the pope loudly proclaimed that Nazism and the Final Solution were evil and it was the duty of all good Catholics to thwart the Nazis at every turn? The silence was deafening, Lee. And yes, the Roman Catholic Church was responsible. Inaction by the Church proved to be very deadly for the Jews of Europe.
12.  To Sarah
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.18.09)
In Holland the church has denounced the deportations . No Jewish life was saved by this . But at least , there , contrary to Rome , they had OPENLY protested . So , had the vatican said something , maybe that some in the East would be influenced . But all those murderers would'nt probably not have stopped , not the "locals" nor the einsatsgruppen .
13. Where are his divisions?
Lee ,   Stewartstown, PA USA   (05.18.09)
Sarah, Although I believe that Pius XII should have said something more explicit than what he did (although it should be remembered that he kept silent about other Nazi atrocities too, not just the Holocaust), I think it would have done very little good. In matters of this sort, people don't usually base their behavior on the pronouncements of religious leaders. Pope Clement VI condemned the persecutions of Jews during the Black Death, yet it seem to have not done much good in practice. And remember the quote (attributed to Stalin) relating to Pius XII: "Where are his divisions?" If the ability even of the Allies, who could (and did) incinerate entire German cities, to rescue Jews during the Holocaust was limited, how much could the Catholic Church have done?
14. Abdul XVI
Frank ,   Canada   (05.18.09)
Ben XVI has not to be a Zionist militant but he certainly cannot be an anti-Zionist militant. The way he spoke against Israel, especially regarding the security fence, is not acceptable at all.
15. Why is the Pope so impotant to you Isa?
JMK ,   NYC   (05.19.09)
What is this facination? Do you think he has any special powers? He is the spiritual leader of a primitive and irrational and reactionary religion, that has demonized Jews in fact and in text. The inquisition burned at the stake fact 12000 men and women and tortured and imprisoned close to fact 85000 Spain alone. I find it funny that Jews seem to think that the Christian storyline is true when the scholarship for two hundred years and for thousands of scholars and taught in the best divinty schools say otherwise. Funny how the Jews seem to think the Inquisition still is in force, the Papal authority does not extend outside the Vatican proper approximately a hundred acres? Where are the Rabbis to inform you that Jesus never existed or that the New Testament is dramatic fiction. Where are their voices? I guess they lost them running to safety when their beloved flocks were sent to the gas chambers! These Jewish religious leaders seem quite incestuous with these Priests, why are they accepting there temporal power and their relgious truth which is a lie, maybe they are all liars and forgers, the scholarship suggests as much.
16. After some confusion, a Vatican official ..........
bruce ,   hula valley   (05.19.09)
After some confusion, a Vatican official finally cleared the record, stating that the Pope was only a "reluctant Hitler youth." Well that's comforting. At least he wasn't an enthusiastic Hitler youth. That would have made his stay in Israel slightly awkward
17. Bruce , 16
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.19.09)
Before this spokesman had denied that Benedict was a member of the hitlerjugend . This contrary to Benedict's autobiography , stated in one report i have read . So , he was confused as you wrote , and with reason . That Benedict was not an enthusiastic member is already known if you make some research on the net .
18. #7 Ben and #11 Sarah
Lisa   (05.19.09)
Ben: you like the smell of fish? Pius XII was not sanctified- not even beatified- Benedict has not sign the beatification - and to be called a saint takes a bit more, in fact it could take a hundred years- so I would not worry too much about it..., at the moment you are barking up the wrong tree with your anti-everything statements. Sarah: there is NO proof that the Pope is a Nazi, that he is an anti-semite, that Pius XII was a Nazi- how dou you know what he did do? All you have is hearsay- as for silence: your accusation that the catholic church is directly or indirectly responsible for the Holocaust- this is even beneath you. I am sure you are going to write a reply accusing me of anti-semitism etc... don't bother- my Jewish friends will help me get over it.
19. Lisa ,
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.19.09)
I wrote it already that Benedict did not sign the decree towards canonisation . But again , Pius remained openly silent , during and AFTER the war . It would not have helped much to save Jews ? Maybe not , but maybe some would have been saved . Who knows ? If some can explain and excuse his silence during the war [ endangering Catholics ] There was not such a danger after the war anymore . There is NO reason that he remained silent then , so why if not a certain "dislike" , to not say more , of the Jewish People ?
20. #19 Charles
Lisa   (05.19.09)
Charles, I don't know why not more people spoke up after the war. How long did it take the world to speak up? To start fighting anti-semitism? Too long in my personal opinion. We must not forget however, that millions of people in Europe lost their families, loved ones, neighbors- This war was not just about the Jews- Europe was hurting- every single country was involved- we tend to forget that. There were millions of casualties, soldiers, civilians- and of course the Jews. So, while I understand and can sympathize with the Jewish people- it is not right to forget, deny, belittle all the other victims. Most people tried to survive day by day..... many did not survive the day.... from what I remember- people did not want to talk about what happened at all after the war. There was too much bitterness and hate all around. Here in Spain ( I live here now)- people are only now starting to come to terms with the atrocities of the Civil War- many are still looking for the graves of their loved ones, any sign, letter etc. So, yes, I think the Pope, and the politicians should have spoken up. And no, I don't think it would have made any difference if the pope or anybody else had spoken up during the war- . They should have gotten rid of the so called scientists and academics who encouraged the little man to 'clean' his race- , instead. Humankind always was god at having 20/20 hindsight- it has never learned from mistakes.
21. Lisa , try # 2 to answer you
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.20.09)
You are of course right . Not only the Jews suffered during WWII . The difference is that Jews were murdered in a methodic way , ONLY for Being Jews . That even when nazi germany was loosing on all the battlefields , their murdering process was still a big priority . Here Jews began only to talk about the Shoa after the Eichmann trial . Sometimes resistance to extermination policy helped . Look only at what happened in Bulgaria because of Peshev's opposition . No Bulgarian Jew was deported to death camps . That nobody else spoke out against the Holocaust after the war ? This would need much research . I think that the Human rights declaration in 1948 was maybe a consequence of the war .
22. #21 Charles
Lisa   (05.20.09)
I agree with #2- history shows that for instance the Inquisition initially was not against the Jews, but to interrogate priests, monks within the Catholic ranks to find out if they were heretics- of course with torture, the answers were quite predictable. There are originals of the interrogations and trials still in libraries... the persecution of the Jews was often not religious in nature, although it was often used to bring them to trial. What the state needed was their money, the same with the Knights Templar- of course one could always find a religious reason to persecute. Persecutions of any kind were very common in Europe- and even as late as the 18th cent. in the States, this could be for heresy, being a witch, treason etc... anything to bring people to trial on trumped up charges.(it is still happening in certain countries today in the East). Aas for methodic murdering: Roma, homosexuals, handicapped people, political prisoners... there was a lot of this going on- in more moderate numbers we know, but all those people were 'unwanted', undesirable. Thousands and thousands of civilians (called political prisoners by the Franco regime) were sent to camps and murdered.... As for speaking out against systematic extermination: what is happening to Kurds?, Tamil Tigers?what happened to Armenians, Indians in the Amazon? The list goes on. Of course the opposition calls them terrorists or extremist- but they did not become that overnight- there is only so much a people are willing to take before resorting to violence. People do speak up- but does anybody listen? There is a temporary outburst of sympathy and then it is forgotten again. I am afraid there will never be satisfactory answers to all questions. But it is nevertheless important to stay with facts, rather than spread hatred and resentment even more. It is very easy today to spread hatred over the Internet- one click and the entire world knows- do we realize how many people believe what they read, take it as God's truth and pass it on..... ? Peace and goodwill can never happen this way. I strongly believe in justice, punishment for criminal activities- for everybody, rich, poor, religious, secular- we must abide by the laws. This also includes spreading lies and libel. Judging entire nations by one persons' wrong doing....we have discussed this before. have a good day, Charles.
23. @15 JMK NYC
Lisa   (05.20.09)
I am assuming you meant Lisa- Isa? fascination with the pope? Hardly- he was an official guest, invited by the Israeli president- complain to the president then, od course you live in NY- so you can't really complain, can you?. As for primitive and irrational religion- this is open for discussion- since much of the Catholic church is based on Jewish tradition and teaching- you are shooting into your own foot, you know. for demonizing Jews: no need to single out this religion or any country- they all had a part in it. You seem to think you know more than most of us: what makes you think the Roman Catholic church is any more fiction, than let's say Budhism, or the Jewish religion- if it comes right down to it- you need more faith than brain to really believe in it--- this is not to say I can't respect any religion. To ridicule another religion is not a sign of intelligence or tolerance- you believe yours is the only true religion- fine- I accept this- but there are millions who would not agree with you- . it is called tolerance! As for Jewish leaders 'seeming incestuous'- is it wrong to get along? It is exactly what the Jews have accused the Christians of: not accepting, not getting along- now that there is a chance to do just that- why all of a sudden the boycott? Changed your mind? Nobody is trying to convert you, change you, whatever- it was a visit- not a crusade- people turned it into mudslinging. I am not sure what people expected- too much? Some did not expect anything, they were just against it for the wrong reasons. reading your post again: I still can't figure out who's side you are on....
24. Lisa
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.20.09)
One of the prime targets of the inquisition were the conversos . Jews who had converted to catholicism , but secretly were still observing the Jewish laws . They were fighting the Judaising of Spain by those conversos . But of course if you consider the conversos as catholics .... This inquisition , not against Jews for you , brought the expulsion of the Jews some years later . So inquisition not against the Jews ? OK it was not only religious , they wanted the Jewish wealth , but the results are the same . Jews suffered in name of the church , Again , Lisa , during WWII Jews were murdered only for being Jewish . No other people was so culpabilised , so rejected , so exterminated . Yes , there were and are many other crimes against people . But never in such an organised way . Never was there such an organigram , so many people involved to organise this , so many techniques used .
25. Catholic in Elgin
Georgie ,   Elgin, IL   (05.20.09)
You've got 4 Catholics here in Elgin, IL (my family) who support Israel, and do our best, in our little way to make sure people don't forget the Holocaust, and counter anti-semitism when we see it.
26. #24 conversos
Lisa   (05.20.09)
Charles, I know about the conversos- and the numbers. I think there is some misconception about the Inquisition in general- in the end it turned out to be murder so the outcome does not change. The Inquisition, in the beginning, was a judicial tool for the church and for Christians only. To be called a heretic was the worst- and burning at the stake was probably a blessing for many. Ferdinand and Isabelle made the Inquisition a political tool to get at the money of the conversos and remove them from high offices. Many Jews and Muslims had converted to Christianity after the Reconquista from fear, to have a better life, to be able to hold an office etc... The Kings wanted that stopped and they needed the money for their overseas adventures..- so the conversos were the victims. Of course many interrogators were churchmen being well versed in religious arguing and getting confessions. While it does not excuse the persecution of the Jewish people- it is maybe just a bit too convenient to always blame the church for everything. In case it makes a difference: they also persecuted their own people: Knights Templars, Cathars and many more. Under Henry VIII it was the new church fighting against the old church; During the Reformation it was Catholics against Protestants- long before that it was Christians against Islam and the other way around... and I am sure in every single war, the Jews were caught in the middle. So, I think history is a bit more complicated than black and white- it is easy and convenient to blame the present pope for everything from the Inquisition to the Holocaust. And after he and everybody else has apologized a thousand times- what then? Does it change history? Does it bring back loved ones? Will the Jewish people forgive? I doubt it. There are enough terrible things happening now, in addition to all that happened to the Jews in the past without gross exaggeration and inflammatory rhetoric-it is enough to stay with the truth- that is the point I was trying to make.
27. Lisa
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.21.09)
How you turn it , finally the Jews were expelled from Spain . That others were also persecuted is irrelevant to our discussion regarding the Pope and his visit here . You know that i'm not blaming Benedict for crimes comitted in name of the "holy" church in the past . You know also that i'm trying to stay with the truth . So don't come with this when answering my writing .
28. Charles
Lisa   (05.21.09)
you should know by now that I value your opinions and respect your serious discussions. I am in no way questioning your statements- I am however not in agreement with some of the statements by other TBs who are all too quick to judge and condemn- .And yes, in a way it is important to know that not only the Jews were persecuted. For you the Jews are the most important people, I understand that, they are important to me too- but all the other victims have voice too.
29. Lisa
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (05.21.09)
I too , i disagree with many extreme statements , not only regarding the Pope , but in every field . That other people suffered , yes , but their sufferings are not related to our discussions PS : you are weaked up early !
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