charles, chareidi/religious to me there is NO difference because both keep the Torah and mitzvos, there is no halacha against going to the army but people have different values which you have to respect!! you can have somone religious and he will still have a tv and someone who is religious and wont have a tv in short no religous people are not like sheep!! but they share a comon way of life. Yes you are right wife beaters, vaad hatznius, all these people should have a cherem on them however, some of these people 'vaad hatznius for example' are so corrupt that even the rabbis are afraid of them. (yes i know that sounds stupid but its true) and before you comment on the above these are people who brake bones for cash so they have NO morals for anyone. The main problem about the media is that anything that puts the religious in a negative light will be broadcasted the beauty of religion is never broadcasted.

I am not denying anything.What I am saying is dont look at the acts of individuals and judge an entire community by them. No one prays countless times a day its only 3 times and anyone who has the attitude you describe has an issue but for everyone of those I can introduce you to 5 who dont have that attitude. As far as my being blind maybe, but you are also !You refuse to see that in your own self ,which is unfortuante.

You take a group of people and treat them like a hive-mind collective. Every single crime one person commits immediately reflects on the entire community, and thus every single criminal who wears black and a hat becomes the focus, and everything else in that group is ignored. You take an incredibly diverse group of people and treat it like machines. You build a straw-man of stereotypes and apply it to the group. You speak of "holier than thou" attitudes, and demand that they go out and lynch every single Charedi man or woman that ever commits a crime. Well, why don't we apply that on everyone, eh? Perhaps I'll judge the Israeli secular crowd by the behavior of anarchists, by the arrogant "holier than thou" attitude of Atheist Secular Humanists who are certain that any religious person is ignorant and dangerous and that religion must be abolished for a better world. I'll judge seculars by the act of every secular criminal, every secular rapist, murderer, or thief, and I'll demand that you put them on a boat and shove them in the sea when they commit a crime. And you'll tell me that I shouldn't be judging the group by the actions of the individual, that's wrong to make such arguments... that it would be quite a bigoted approach to do that, taking the worst dregs of a group of people and using that to paint the whole time and time again... and you would be entirely right. It's just that it's not only true when applied to you, but when you apply it to others as well. When did it become reasonable, Charles, to demand that a criminal be removed from society for all time? Tried, convicted, and punished yes, condemned for his actions and others told not to act like him *yes*, but to actively cut him out of society in some kind of banal display of "what we do to bad people"? And Talula, no one stands by hooligans, child molesterers, and women beaters - not in your society, and in Haredi society. The difference is that you actively speak to and read the a newspapers of the former community, but refuse to talk with the latter with anything other than arrogant, hate-filled scorn. You see only what you want to see, and nothing else.

This "exclusion" demand was as a response to this "had enough" who said that they are'nt true Torah followers . And yes , they have'nt any place in a religious community . If i was a member of such a congregation , i would'nt like to sit next to such a "person" at my Beth Knesseth . But were they openly , publicly condemned by "their" Rabbis ? Was this fake "rabbi" expelled ? As far as known to me this public condemnation never occured . Would you like to sit next to someone who raped or comitted other such crimes at your Beth Knesseth ? Something very different , dear Roman . You did'nt answer my question regarding writring on Shavouoth . You can say that i wrote Shabbath , but this would be a very poor response , not worthy of you .

You did'nt say anything about you calling me a liar . That there are differences between charidi and other religious persons is known to me very well . And even between different groups of Charidim , even of the same "sect" You spoke about other "values" for the charidim for not going to the army . Those are basicall "values" common to all the Charidim , i think . So for you those IAF volunteers are'nt Charidim . They will certainly appreciate your anonymous writing .

"Secular Family kills four-year old daughter" "Secular teacher has an affair with student" "Seculars avoiding army more than ever" You will not see the above, because by default "secular" is assumed. This is logical. However, it ends up being that because of this Hareidim are persecuted. Whenever something negative about the Hareidim the headline includes the word "Hareidi". And, usually, people end up thinking "ugh... those hareidim". If the above headlines appeared, "Secular Grandfather admits to killing granddaughter", then more ppl's reactions would be "ugh... those seculars." Of course, that would be an anti-secular response. btw, the above headlines are all based on articles on YNET from the past year or so.

At least not for any length of time, because you seemingly have no idea whatsoever how a religious community reacts to a dangerous criminal in their midst, especially if they once viewed him as a part of their of their community. Consider for a moment, Charles, how *you* would react if someone you knew and spoke to on a regular basis would turn out to be dangerous, and went against central ideals that you held dear. People who commit such terrible crimes are ostracized locally more often than not. Sometimes the community may grudgingly "forgive" a person and allow him and become a better person, but that depends on how well people think they know the person in question. What do you want religious communities to do, exactly? Publish street-wide ads and advertise on the radio every time that a religious criminal comes up? Say how "he's not one of us", again in some banal form of self-flagellation in front of the stereotype-driven public? Why do you feel that they must state the obvious - that such deeds are wrong? We know they're wrong, Charles. We don't accept them and speak against them quite often - often enough. Perhaps if you listened to what we talk about amongst ourselves, or simply *asked* us rather than assumed our viewes and practices, then you would have been less ignorant about it. As it stands, you judge the religious by the standards of yellow journalism. Perhaps you should try reading a weekly newspaper of the Haredi public, just to try and grasp the internal debates and views of the community. You know - something written by a person who actually knows what he's talking about when the ultra-Orthodox are mentioned? Regarding your question: When did you ask? I don't remember a question about writing on Shavouoth, so please repeat it. If it was a question about *me* personally writing on Shavouoth, then I don't.

indeed , i'm not a frequent visitor of a Synagogue . Listen , they are maybe not so welcomed anymore , but we have'nt seen or heard any public condemnation of those "people" . I did'nt read any such condemnation in the non religious press . If it is done , why not made it known to the whole public ? Has this to remain in the inner circles ? What i would like to be done ? simply , not to allow such persons to assist to the services . That's all . I know that you condemn them , and all the people around you also . But how can you sit next to such a person ? how can you wish him שבת שלום or גמר טוב ? How can you eventually smile at him knowing what he has done ? Regarding my question , it was regharding this timetable . You asked if i had taken those timetables in account when telling this "Torah Jew" that he wrote on Shabbat .

As some religious do .

no i spoke of religious, the word charedi does not exist. some people have different values to others thats in all sects of judaism. Now ME as in PERSONALLY as long as somone is relgious ie keep Torah and mitzvot he can do watever he wants because i will always respect him for what he is and what he does. (i never called you a liar i only said what i believe in)

You say that the religious public must make some kind of public performance of condemning criminals and perverts, as if we needed something to prove or perhaps abase ourselves in front of the secular public. Since when was that normal? Should every criminal get headline news, placards, and some kind of official public spokesperson on TV saying "we don't like people like that"? This is nonsense. Since when did every single crime or event require prime time news outlets to collect statements from his community, so as to prove that they don't approve of such actions? Of course the religious don't approve of rape and violence! Why do we need to prove it, time and time again as you seem to be demanding? Because some bigots think otherwise? And again you make assumptions, and use bigoted stereotypes to attempt to predict my behavior or that of other religious people - we don't simply sit next to such people, or shake their hands and say Shabbat Shalom and Ktiva ve Hatima Tova. But we *do* have something called Teshuva, and we're capable of forgiving when someone leaves such paths. Perhaps that's what bothers you so much, I don't know - you seem to believe that people should be shoved out for all time. As for that old article (I don't even quite remember which one it was), what did Shavuot have to do with it? I'm fairly certain it was a week before Shavuot, not on the Shabbat which was directly after Shavuot.

By telling the contrary , that religious don't claim that their education is better , is the same as calling me a liar . That's it .

You don't remember the question , not about what it was , but you are certain that it was a week before . A selective memory ? I'll try to find the article . I don't say that every criminal should be openly condemned . But we did'nt hear or read it about ANY one . Repentance ? even in jail child molesters have to fear from other inmates , and you accept them in your community . Don't say that they were punished , they have to be rejected from every community .

Do You have a selective memory ? You don't remember the question , not the article , but you are "fairly certain" that it was a week before Shavouot . Look at culture , Health and science , the gay clinic to open in T.A.

Do you know that even in jail child molesters have to fear for their life because of other inmates ? And you accept them in your community ? There is NO Teshuva or forgiving for such people . Try to see how they destructed the life of a child . I know a woman who was raped aged 11 , more than 60 years ago . Even today you can see how her life was broken , and you talk about Teshuva , repentance , forgiving ? Yes , there are crimes where the criminal should be "shoved" for his whole life . Certainly in religious communities , but also everywhere .

Secular, Orthodox, Haredi, whatever, we are all Jews. Instead of this constant ridiculous infighting, we should try get along with each other. There are both religious and secular Jews who are responsible for this infighting, and they ought to be ashamed. Judaism teaches “What is hurtful to you, do not do unto others.” Some people have obviously forgotten this We are all Jews, and we all have common enemies. When we are divided we are weak, but when we are united, we are strong. *for the record, I am secular and I get along fine with religious Jews. If I can do it so can everybody else.

I didn't remember the question and article properly, and it was indeed in the Shabbat after Shavuot - so your comment was correct, the person in question shouldn't have been writing on either day (be it Shavuot or Shabbat) if he's calling himself a Torah Jew. And no, I don't write on either day.

small communities, even if you don't get headline news about it. In such cases the community almost never forgives, and certainly never forgets. Again, you assume based on... something. Something you heard from someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about, and then you project that on an entire public - ignorantly. Don't you realize how foolish your claim regarding how the religious supposedly allow child molesters to roam freely, considering how incredibly protective the religious community is of their children? Why don't you go out there and speak to a few people in black, Charles. Get to know a few people, instead of treating the people you speak with as if they were the exception to some macabre rule - just like you're doing here with me.

He doesn't need to know actual people he stereotypes - his mind is already made up. Don't think he will actually know individuals about whom he writes. That would be reasonable and intelligent, something the man from Petach Tikva isn't.

charles, religious and secular they are both 2 different educational systems. Each think that theirs is better because that is human nature. The religious think that there educational system is better because statically there are more problems with drugs, alchol, smoking, 'teacher-student relationships' etc with the secular system but on the other hand the religious system has problems of its own eg rasicm and no higher education. So both have problems!! A word of advice you should open your eyes and be a bit more open minded.

A big difference , religious not only think it , but some CLAIM it . There are education problems in the whole world , not only in Israel . I have grand children in the religious state school , there are also drinking problems there by youths of 13 .

Two months ago i was at a Beth Knesseth for the "hanachat Tefilim" and on the following Shabbat for their Bar Mitzwa , where i had also an Alyah of course . Thinking that i could have shaken hands with a NON rejected sex offender .......

That you allowed your preconceived notions to define your attendance at the synagogue? That you instead preferred to attend as some kind of frightened tourist, gawking at the "amoral religious ones" and their supposed acceptance of sexual assault and child molestation? You still don't quite get the point, do you? At best you're showing that your view on the matter is based entirely on rubbish, and that you prefer to let said rubbish paint your perception of the religious instead of challenging the way you think.

I was not thinking at all at this when i was in this nice small Beth Knesseth . My view is based on what you wrote , it's maybe rubbish , i don't know . You wrote that "criminals" are NOT rejected entirely from your community , repentance and Tsheshuva . So it's always possible that there is one such a "criminal" in an attendance . I was'nt there as a frightened tourist , but as a happy grandfather enjoying his grandchildren .

to twisting my words and trying to play them against me? So sorry, but that won't be working out. As I've already said previously, sex offenders are given harsh treatment in religious communities, far harsher than you'd find out of them. You're likelier to meet a sex offender in your local community center, in the store, or even on the other side of the table when going to receive some government service, than you are in a synagogue. I'm glad you attended the synagogue as a happy grandfather, but you seem to be looking at the religious as aliens from another planet regardless.

Did'nt you write that they are not totally rejected ? They are given harsh treatment in religious communities , you wrote , and i believe it of course . But they are still present , and this disturbs me . Sorry to disapoint you , i'm not looking at all the religious as aliens from another planet . There are great people amongst them , even amongst the Charidim . Those are , may , and have to be publicised . I was not only happy , but proud of my grandchildren . Enough for today . Again : שבת שלום

automatically thrown out of the community, Charles. Sex offenders get a much tougher treatment, thrown out of the community outright as a rule - again, because the religious community is incredibly protective of its children, and isn't willing to place them at risk. I don't understand why I have to repeat everything time and time again, in an endless barrage of nitpicking. Shabbat Shalom, Charles.

In your # 33 : when did it become reasonable that a criminal be removed from society for all time . Now you say that sex offenders are THROWN out as a rule . It's the first time that you write it . What should i believe ? your # 33 or this latest ? Don't turn around and say that i did'nt understand or that i ran out of arguments as in your 55 . Your 33 was very clear i think : it's not reasonable to remove a criminal for all time , you wrote . I'll prefer of course that they be thrown out . Why did'nt you write it earlier ? But your memory ........

Wich one should i believe ? This one where you say that it is not reasonable to remove a criminal for all time [ in your 33 ] or this 57 where you say that sex offenders are thrown out ? I prefer of course your 57 , but why did'nt you write it earlier and clearly ? Maybe this will be published .

And on the specific matter of sex offenders we've had a back-and-forth for several comments since - perhaps you should actually read them now, you know... where I talked of sex offenders in particular. That would be the THREE comments before last, Charles. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.