they live like they did hundreds of years ago, so why do they really need the internet? I'm sorry, I tried to look for the good, but there's only stupid here. They don't have to log on directly to www.koogle.co.il - they can still go direct to www.devilsdumplings.com and other forbidden sites. Unless their computers have an activate content advisor, set up by someone, with a password, they can still get into any site they want. Not sure that the Haredim understand subnets and gateways. So really, who are they trying to fool. The only reason they are doing this, is to keep the perverts out of the university internet rooms and consequently, out of the headlines.

That's why almost all of them in Israel use Internet Rimon as their provider, which provides the best ISP-level content filtering in Israel. It also provides filtered search results in all search engines used, so no worries there about having a single bulky web-portal that can be, as you said, easily circumvented. Koogle is just a web portal. It's been around for a few years in various developing forms, and so far I have seen no reason to use it at all. You either use proactive filtering on every single website you access, or none at all.

I admit that I don't completely understand the concept of "kosher," but having to almost force compliance with the details of the tenets of a particular religion doesn't speak too well of the faithful or of the confidence those in charge have in those faithful. I don't jump the Fedex drivers or mailmen because I have locks on my doors that automatically shut at the approach of a man, but because, well, my conscience tells me that it's just not the right and decent thing to do. I don't want to hear about the spin my age could put on that "jumping." I'm simply trying to make a point.

It's a nice idea for those who want internet in their home with the shmutz. But whose Shabbat will they use? Israel, US, UK,?? All different time zones.

Then why did they launch www.koogle.co.il ? Do me a favour - stop pretending to be so naive, it's annoying.

What secular would want to go to this site on Saturday and buy something? Pretty much no-one. Hmmmmm, that leaves the religious. So why would they need to block the site on Saturday if they are not supposed to be going in anyway.

It was launched by Modern Orthodox (AKA Dati Leumi) web developers who wanted to build a central web portal - and like any web portal, it was built with advertising in mind - as a *business*, to earn money, and their target populace is the religious crowd. Only now it's trying to sell itself to the ultra-Orthodox as well, focusing on an English-speaking crowd as well, though their English edition is still severely limited compared to their comprehensive Israeli Hebrew web portal. *shrug* It's a nice web portal, but at the moment it's going a bit too far in its self-advertising. Religious Jews who want web filtering get *real* web filtering, be it through software or better yet through a specialized ISP (as any kid can tell you, circumventing software filtering is easy). And I'm far from naive. It's just that you're so incredibly biased against the Haredim that you *have* to have something bad to say about them, no matter what. In your head Haredim = Perverts, and that's that. Keep on living by stereotypes, Talula, I'm sure it will get you far.

And random searches lead to it on a regular basis, even with the most innocent searches. It's not a matter of limiting choice but of avoiding getting content you didn't want to get in the first place - which is a choice!

If they can't "filter" the non kosher sites by themselve , they need someone doing it for them . It's not forced morality , M. Hartley . It's their own choice . Secular 6 . Internet is not only for buying .

OK, it is for use by religious. I think we can assume that much. There is nothing you can say that will convince me that they all have filters on their PCs. There are ways around this. Secondly, why exactly to they need computers? What are they doing on the internet anyway? Anything they need to know is written in a book, not online. They go online to look for smut - not to shop. And if they have time for that, they have time to work, even part-time. Your continual accusations that I am biased against Haredim are tiresome and tenuous, not to mention unsubstantiated. Yes, I get angry when they are in the news for rioting ON SHABBAT, lying to the government about false yeshiva numbers to extricate money, not serving their country, taking everything and not giving anything back, judging others, wife beating, modesty squats, baby beaters, child abusers, sexual abusers, fraud, smashing up people's private property and an array of other hateful and vile acts. All performed by extremely religious Jews – who all seem to forget that what they are doing is forbidden by God. So, are they really Jews? You could have fooled me. Yes, I’m biased against that kind of behaviour, I expect better from a god fearing squad of penguins – I wouldn’t expect better from a secular – who doesn’t believe in the thou shalt nots. I know and very much love those of my friends who are religious. They would never EVER behave in that way. NEVER. So don’t talk crap about me being biased. It’s not without cause.

"not serving their country" Ask a devout ultra-Orthodox Jew how he sees Torah study, and he will tell you that for them, the existence of such study is first and foremost to protect all Jews. That is their belief, Talula - you may not agree with it, but it's one central Jewish beliefs that's been around for a while. I'd like to see the ultra-Orthodox serve more in the army and in national service, and they'll do so (be it after yeshiva study or, in some cases, during it or instead of it), just as soon as the army gets around to setting up environments suitable for ultra-Orthodox. Nahal Haredi was always a small and limited affair for those wanting a top-rate combat unit, and the current small units in the Air-Force and elsewhere that are for Haredim are only small affairs, of a project that only just begun in the army. For decades the rule was that the Haredim should bend their religion to the breaking point rather than expect the army to accommodate to their basic needs (like Glatt Kosher food). That's finally changing because the army *wants* Haredim now, but has realized that it doesn't have places it can put them in. The number serving Haredim is growing by the year thanks to the Tal Law and army-sponsored programs that encourage service, so we'll see more of it sooner than you expect. "taking everything and not giving anything back" They pay the same taxes you do, give a *lot* more to charity than the secular public, have charity funds and volunteer rescue services... and you say they give nothing? "judging others" You mean like you're doing now? Most Haredim don't care one way or another, and just want to maintain their own lifestyle and beliefs. "wife beating" Care to show me domestic violence statistics about the Haredi public, perhaps compare them to other statistics about Israel? Because for a moment there, you made me think that the first thing a Haredi man does after marriage is beat his wife with a stick to "show her her place", which has about as much to do with reality as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. "modesty squats" Squads, you mean. And I seem to recall a single "modesty squad" which had little if any approval within the Haredi public (the violent vigilantism may have had something to do with it, as well as refusing to heed calls from notable Rabbis to stop what they're doing). They were arrested with the help of *Haredim*, Talula, even though many in Jerusalem were simply too afraid of them. "baby beaters" Plural, than singular? I recall a notable case of a young father who, unfortunately, was too stupid to have children. But again, are all Haredim baby beaters? Because you seem to be implying a *trend*! "child abusers, sexual abusers, fraud, smashing up people's private property and an array of other hateful and vile acts." Again, bring statistics rather than generalizing and crass stereotypes. If I do things like you, I can call the secular public a bunch of anarchists, yuppies, knife-wielding school thugs, rapists, sex-crazed prostitute seekers, perverts, and so on and so forth until I cover every single bad term that has any noticeable part of the secular public under its wing. And I don't do that, because that would be using stereotypes and bigotry to talk about a public. See where you're wrong yet? "All performed by extremely religious Jews – who all seem to forget that what they are doing is forbidden by God." No one is perfect, and people are quite capable of deceiving themselves that what they're doing is good. Sometimes no self-deception is needed, and they're just criminals, people who were born to religious parents and who maintain the outer shell of a religious life to be accepted in their society, all the while being hypocrites. But for every one such person, there are 999 people you fault without basis, which you define as evil because it's convenient to generalize rather than think, or get to know the people you talk about.

"There is nothing you can say that will convince me that they all have filters on their PCs. There are ways around this." Internet Rimon operates on server-side white-listing, and it's far from being the only such service in the world. Every ISP has web caches as central parts of its system, to Rimon simply runs every single IP destination and host name through filtering databases (and on many occasions, human checks) to categorize the content per their filtering programs, with sexual content simply deleted from the cache outright. If it's not in the web-cache, even temporarily, then the user can't have it. Add a few heavy-duty firewalls to serve as encrypted connection proxies and decryption offloaders, and you have everything covered. And Talula, if and when you do network and engineering and design for a living, *then* you tell me (who does do this for a living) what is or isn't possible. And those who don't have a true ISP-level filtering service sometimes compromise for software filtering, depending on how much they need the internet. "Secondly, why exactly to they need computers? What are they doing on the internet anyway?" Email. Banking. Work-related sites (at least one person in the family, husband or wife, works to provide for the family - and in the ultra-Orthodox crowd traditional industries like the diamond trade, newer ones like hi-tech, or just running your own store need web access nowadays). News. Discussions. "Anything they need to know is written in a book, not online." Did I mention stereotypes yet? I hope I did. "They go online to look for smut - not to shop." So you somehow failed to notice that Judaica stores also have online sites? So who buys there, exactly... And if you think that Haredim don't look for apartments, furniture, or various appliances? Just everyone else does? "And if they have time for that, they have time to work, even part-time." So when you buy things online, you do it instead of working? As so does everyone else? Interesting theory there. "Your continual accusations that I am biased against Haredim are tiresome and tenuous, not to mention unsubstantiated." They are given further support every time you generalize on an entire public and treat it like a hive mind. They gain more credence when you analyze Haredim and other religious people based on commonly known stereotypes. And when you simply invent negative aspects to a matter that has to do with the Haredim just because it has Haredim in it, then you have very little left to defend yourself with. "Yes, I get angry when they are in the news for rioting ON SHABBAT" Good, I don't like people rioting on Shabbat either. Neither do other religious people or Haredim. Perhaps you should try getting to know a few before deciding that everyone accepts such behavior? "lying to the government about false yeshiva numbers to extricate money" So every Yeshiva is filling with liars and money-grubbers, then? Have you actually looked at the numbers? I'll be quite interested in seeing them, and seeing just how small the percentage of actual proven cases of fraud is, though that won't stop you from generalizing on all of them.

the same as for you and me , but probably other points of interest .

at those sites if i don't want . But i'm not an Orthodox Jew , maybe they need .

Thank you for your objectivity. It is rare to find in Israel a person who is not just brainwashed by the media and is able to appreciate the "Haredim" are people too.

There's content I'm not interested in having on my screen, and that's that. For some the certainty of avoiding such unwanted explicit content is the condition for using the net in any form other than email and a few selected white-list specific sites. Others still don't want to see content that is immodest by their standards, or extreme language, or gossip and so on... for them the filtering options are more strict, depending on their needs. And of course, there's the matter of children. Protecting children from such children is critical as far as religious and especially ultra-Orthodox are concerned - for them it's a *certain* limit of whether or not they let the kids access the net at all.

The Ultra orthodox sector seems to prefer to live in a ghetto both physical & mental. They do not interact with “outsiders’ who may introduce “new” ideas and morals, but, they cannot ignore all developments so they use a “kosher” such engine to keep the boundaries of their mental ghetto secure. They, like the Pennsylvania Dutch, among other such sects,keep the modern world as far away from themselves as possible so they can preserve their “frozen in time” ideas and life style.

just one click away and the devil enters,