Rivkah hits the nail on the head in her description of Israel as the Jewish (haredi) State, as opposed to the purpose for which we Zionists created it: refuge for ALL Jews. This was clearly understood by the founding fathers when they drafted the Law of Return based on the Grandparent Clause: A Jew is a Jew as defined by those who would define us such for purposes of murder. While the founders of Zionism could not anticipate lethal antisemitism in the 1890’s, Ben-Gurion et al had no misgivings regarding the status of our Diaspora in the west. When Ben-Gurion invited the NRP to join the government it was to reinforce the Jewish character. Nothing more, nothing less. In the years since the anti-Zionist haredim have insinuated themselves into a political deal-breaker, come to hold the government (whatever party leading it) hostage to their demands. Anti-Zionism with a veto power of Who is a Jew, over the definition of Halacha, the authority of who, by virtue of conversion, can be a citizen of Israel? Judaism has never in all history been defined by a single sect or authority. Certainly not since the Roman invasion. Israel is moving in a direction away from its intended purpose, Ingathering of the (ALL) Exiles. We never intended for the state we created to come to discriminate based on a particular interpretation of Halacha. As Rivkah observes, if the anti-Zionist haredim want to live in a private ghetto, complete with their discriminatory version of Halacha, well that is their privilege. For Israel to allow them to discriminate against Am Yisrael is a crime, and will destroy the state in the end.

The problem is that these special "batei din" purposely do not ensure that prospective converts are sincere. So if a person agrees to accept upon themselves the yoke of Torah & Mitzvot, and goes directly from the mikva to a church (a true story), is the conversion valid? And if a Beit Din does not interest itself in a prospective convert's true intent, how can any of its conversions be trusted? This has nothing to do with Chareidim. It is a question of honesty. Something sorely lacking in Druckman's conversion process.

There are only two satisfactory ways in which this situation can be handled: 1. Restore control of the Chief Rabbinate and all the other arms of Israel’s religious-bureaucratic complex to the national-religious (Zionist) stream of Orthodoxy. This is the 2nd prize. 2. The 1st prize is a complete separation between religion and state in Israel, with each major stream of Judaism (including the Haredim, if they so wish) being permitted or encouraged to set up and manage its own conversion procedures, courts, etc., and the state ceasing to involve itself in religious matters completely. The state must be obliged to accept without question a conversion certificate issued by any of the major streams. Anything less than this, and these situations will continue to occur and escalate year after year, with the most extreme and least representative branch of Judaism imposing its will and mores on the rest of the Jewish people.

You did not understand one thing of the subject. The question is not that of validity of converts but that of validity of Batei Din. A Jew converted by a modern orthodox or dati leumi Beit Din is no more recognised as jewish by the israeli great rabbinate since it has been taken over by Haredim. This, whatever the sincerity and way of life of the convert. The problem is clearly a struggle for power played by the Haredim against the datim leumim. And the only victims are the converts. I personnally know many people converted by haredi batei din who cheated and do not keep mitzvot. According to the israeli great rabbinate,they are jewish. I also happen to know torah abiding Jews converted by modern orthodox batei din who are not recognised as jewish by Metzger/Amar. How funny ? No, just totally disgusting.

the premise upon which the author writes; ie that the ultra-orthodox rejected Rav druckmans conversions because of their attitude towards him-- is false. The real reason is that they believe, rightly or wrongly, that a significant portion of the rabbis who served on conversion batei dinim knowingly converted people who were not fit to be jewish. Thus, they argue, they are not valid judges or witnesses, and therefore they cannot convert anyone. It has nothing to do with rabbi druckman personally.

with your logic. 1) You say that you know a person who went directly from mikveh to church - then NO, this conversion is not valid. But why did you not say something to that person? Or, if you hear that from second or third person, did you stop to think that this MAY BE leshon ha ra? I know SEVERAL cases in which born Jews smeared converts because they cast a bad name on them - they were not even fasting on Yom Kippur and these converts kept everything, so they started to be better looked upon then the first ones. I know this FIRST HAND and was involved in a quarrel in kehila that arose from that. 2) Do not even begin to think that if ONE goes to church after mikveh that ALL go to church after mikveh. 3) Do not think that bet din are a magical mind reader - bet din can convert or not convert only on what they see or hear or hear testifying. And ALL that can be false! The problem, however, is in PROVING: he can have his conversion annuled ONLY if it PROVEN that in the TIME OF CONVERSION he was not intentional of keeping Yoke of Torah. But of course, Torah was wise when It prescribes that you FIRST take convert and convert him, and THEN you teach him - it was later rabbis that switched the process other way around (personally, I think that was a mistake, and this is the result). Why? Because it is known to Torah that a convert who DOES NOT FEEL JEWISH will INEVITABLY fall from Torah and will assimilate back. In other words, G-d Himself will annul his conversion! So, how do you know that Druckman's bet dins didn't REALLY check the intentions and were fooled? 4) You say that honesty is sorely lacking in Druckman's conversion process. That means that ALL his conversions back 10 years were bad? If this is true, how can you say that? How can you judge ALL conversions right back 10 years? How do you know that they didn't just "fall" from the Torah? And are, let's say, Masorti? I really do not understand how and why are you so certain in the attitude that it was not all in honesty?

Nowhere in my response did I mention Torah, as you imply (did you even read the response?). I mentioned Halacha, the religious traditions which various branches of Judaism interpret according to their understanding. In fact, Halacha is constantly reinterpreted by succeeding generations and by hochmim within each generation. Which is in part the reason why one member of the orthodox community (Sherman) can disagree, misunderstand or outright misrepresent the interpretation of another, more respected member of the orthodox community, Rabbi Druckman. Different strokes for different folks! The problem discussed in giveret Lubitch's article is that one self-appointed authority has taken upon himself to intentionally do harm to many others in the self-righteous cause of religious orthodoxy (not a dramatic leap of imagination to exchange religious for racial, orthodoxy for purity: is not the intent the same?). Not only is Sherman assuming authority over the secular institutions of the state, which is anti-Zionist and overridden by the state via the Supreme Court, but he does so at the cost of the lives and feelings, the sense of identity of parents and their children as Jews and Israelis. He is cruel and sonei adam. Even so, as a Zionist I recognize his right to reside in the state of the Jews, as I recognize that anti-Zionist group, Natorei Zion to do so on the same basis. After all, the secular and Zionist State of Israel is for all Jews, even these.

Converts are not wanted in LA. A sleazy "Jewsish" weekly newspaper published an article about conversions. Without saying his name, a high ranking Orthodox rabbi was quoted as saying that converts were not welcomed as if they perfectly kept the commandments they would show up the regular shul Jews and if they were not perfect, "they dilute Judaism." Los Angeles truly is a case of "We were here first, we don't need or want you." Now if you are a female goyim who is going to marry a well to do Jewish man, there is no problem, they want the children to be Jewish. It is so sad that Abraham kept all four flaps of his tens open to never miss a possible convert and his charity has been turned into cruelty by people who believe that it is better to chase away a thousand sincere potential converts than possibly allow in one who is not as sincere as they judge necessary. Too bad Abraham can't come back from the grave and teach all the rabbis who are involved in such conversion atrocity.

THE RABBIS DONT HAVE THE TALENT THE POTENTIALS DONT HAVE THE SINCERITY. TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN HOME FIRST

Christian. Get a Judaic education.

Kareit for Qorakhs who think they're more "talented" than the rabbis, better judges of sincerity than the rabbis and irresponsible, hateful slanderers. Kareth has already been passed on you and you just don't know it! Bye, bye.

and let God sort them out.

Jewish law does permit some non-Jews to reside in the land of Israel under certain conditions, which can be summed up thus–”must pay taxes and accept suffering, humiliation and servitude” as expressed by Mordechai Nisan of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem who relied upon the law of Maimonides which demands that a non-Jew be held down, that he not raise his head against Jews. A convert is only a non-Jew Torah Observant.

Annuling peoples conversions is cruel. Doesn't the Torah tell us to be kind to converts? From what I have learned it is impossible to annul a conversion that has already taken place, even if the person doesn't keep mitzvot.

Abraham and several other good folks seemed to have done OK. Would they qualify today?

Chief Rabbi Amar rejected Dayan Sherman's opinion for many reasons, inter alia, Rabbi Druckman was not the case given to Dayan Sherman; Rabbi Druckman was not invited to court to speak and be examined, only the full court of nine judges could hear such a grave case as revoking conversions en masse, retroactively revoking conversions en mass is contrary to natural justice and Halacha. Rabbi Druckman is a senior rosh yeshivah, a former member of Chief Rabbi Goren's Beth Din and a former Orthodox MK, appointed by Chief Rabbi Amar to run the conversion authority.

We Jews represent approximately one tenth of 1% of the worlds population. Perhaps 14 million people. We must be most careful not to sully our blood lines with non believers. After all, purity in belief is paramount to passing on our Judaism to our children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc. So we are taught by our sages. Or is that really what is being taught today? Knowing that Judaism today is represented in hundreds of different manners by hundred of different "sages" with hundreds of different beliefs, why all this folderall re conversion? We need Jews who call themselves Jews. Do we need Rabbis who act as mullahs or popes? Is rabbinic power more important than Judaism? Today's Judaism and Torah Judaism are two different animals. The rabbis call it orthodox Judaism; they call it ultra/orthodox; yet they cannot and do not agree what orthodox or ultra/orthodox is. Yet they want to determine what it is not. Then of course we have what those rabbis call secular Judaism, reform, conservative, etc. Once again, a different set of beliefs emanating from the original but still calling those beliefs Judaism. Is one more valid than the other? Why? Based on who's definition? All accept the 10 Commandments, all accept the ONE G-D; yet only some are willing to accept anyone calling himself/herself a Jew. No fancy /schmancy conversion rites being necessary, no baloney about following whatever the rabbi decides is true Judaism and once accepted, cannot be reversed due to any rabbi having a change of mind of what is acceptable. Who is a JEW????? What is a JEW??? Why is he/she a JEW??? When is he/she a JEW???? Isn't that up to Hashem to decide !!!

There are huge biblical consequences for causing grief to converts, yet the amount of rabbis who do this on a daily basis is incredible. At the end they won't be judged for how many fake coverts they kept out, but on how many righteous converts they caused pain. As a police officer friend of mine said once, "Better a hundred crooks free, than one innocent in jail." Better a hundred fake converts, than one real one denied his right to join our nation. And we should all pray that we never cause grief to a widow an orphan and/or a convert.

Only have one doubt. Nor Haredim nor their strange customs were not known to Juwish world in land of Israel 2 thousand years ago. This groups should be treated as a fanatic sects dangerous for the democratic country existence. Their wars between different streams, "spiritual leaders" etc. and against the Zionist majority is criminal and destroying the fundamentals of modern society.

Unfortunately I omitted my name on #18. I do thank Ynet for publishing my words anyway. Look, these sects have a perfect right to believe as they will. The real problem those sects pose is their desire to force their beliefs upon the remainder of the world. The Israeli politicians, some even are members of those sects, lack the guts to speak the truth to Israel. ISRAEL desperately needs a constitution with the proviso separating religion from state. I don't believe it will ever occur simply because the politicians lack the will to even design such a document. It is possible as you indicate that these sects could destroy Israel. I doubt that it will occur since the mainstream of Judaism in Israel knows full well the danger of religious fundamentalism. All they need look at today is the Iranian riots where one format of Iranian religious leadership is fighting with another format. The name of the game is POWER.!! It matters not what the religion is. The leadership all demand the same thing, complete obediance to whatever it is they call religiosity. That is POWER.!!!

As someone who converted here in Israel through the Israeli rabbinate, later did a giyur l'chumrah through the Hareidim and is now happily married to a rabbi, I am personally disgusted by this whole dispute. According to halachah, you do not even need rabbis on your beit din and at the mikvah, just three shomer shabbat Jewish men. Once you are converted, even if under false pretences, you are still Jewish (read the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch). While I am grateful to the Hareidi rabbis who did the chumrah so that no one anywhere should doubt my Jewishness, I can testify that I actually received my Jewish soul - from Hashem - at my original Israeli Rabbinate conversion. No human being can take back what Hashem has given, and anyone annulling ANY conversion has to extremely careful: how can you truly tell, without any doubt, what was in a person's mind AT THE MOMENT OF CONVERSION itself? To tell someone they are not Jewish when they are is a grave sin. And frankly the present system of conversion is deeply difficult and frequently unjust and emotionally abusive: you cannot imagine the unbelievable suffering and even sometimes sadly downright stupidity that people converting are often forced to endure.

I say we convert all palestinians wave the wand and no more conflict. We will all be jews no? this way the jewish majority will be ensured forever and the palestinian israeli conflict will be over Lets just make something up that the palestinians will agree to and presto they will be jewish!

Judaism doesn't have a hierarchy of authority, so how does this deny his authority? Any Rabbi, great or small, can have have his opinion repudiated by other Rabbis. Thank G-d, we're not Catholic.

Would Abraham qualify today? NO! His mother wasn't a Jew, he didn't eat kosher food, he didn't keep Shabbat and he certainly wasn't converted by any rabbi. Rabbi Amar could say quite truthfully Abraham was not a Jew according to his understanding of who and what is a Jew. HOWEVER, according to the Torah Abraham was the first person to believe and tell all who would listen that only one G-d existed. Did that make him a Jew? Actually no. The term Jew didn't come into being until much later. As I remember, we were first Hebrews before we became known as Jews. It is possible that Israel is a misnomer for the land Hashem gave to our forebears, the ten tribes. How about Hebrewland?

My mother is a convert and the humilation she's had to endure in her community , the abuse and when she decided to go on aliyah with my father is terrible. How these people can daven and says words that asks us to remember the stranger and the orphans and to be careful how you treat them , is a hipocrasy. The people that are put in places to handle these sensitive issues are not given any sort of sensitivity training and are down right rude and disrespectful. My mother was shamed by a 20 some odd year old who hasn't been living long enough to practice what my parnent has, and at through a choice of her own, and just not being born into it. I also question how much information is discussed at home with the rabbis famiies about those they migier - as we went to school in a small community all together and we were deffinately treated differently, especially when it came time for getting married. Choosing to be Jewish and live that life is a choice that should be revered not looked down upon,