I know a religious woman , modestly dressed , who lives in Beth Shemesh . She is also disgusted with those fanatics . She said that they are those who divide our people , that they are those who disgust the seculars from approaching the religious people . For those fanatic people it's only the "package" that is important . What's inside not . Well , they are wrong .

Each normal woman knows how to be modest and where are the limits. It is the heart that reveals this knowledge. This is what written in New Testament(1Peter 3:1-6): Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external--the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear-- but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. In Tanach Living God Almighty also teaches us a lot about our hearts. Psalm 37:4 - Delight yourself also in Jehovah, and He shall give you the desires of your heart. Therefore be careful what and how you read. Holy Scripture is more trustworthy source than "instructions accompanied by drawings"). And make with your hearts good examples for religious and secular neighbors.

Unsolicited mail of this sort is harassment and also carries dangerous overtones. What if these modesty rules are not kept? Will there be consequences?

Rivkah, nobody has to do color codes at this point in Israel. You do not have a clue as to the varieties of dress that are appropriate halachically. Citing the Tanach out of context is not a substitute for living a Jewish life right now in the 21st century. Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that you are not Jewish but simply have adopted a Hebrew name. This would make your inappropriate comments completely out of line. *** Bunny, I know the neighborhood and you were just being given a hard time --for which I apologize for these illbred yentas--because someone pegged you as a tourist--probably also an American. I have seen women walking through Geula in slacks, bright red sweaters, etc etc and no one has turned a hair or stopped them.

at the same period a guy of such a village told me that Jews have HORNS . Also unther influence of a priest .

Good idea, but let's implement it in East Jerusalem.

As usual, Rivkah the X-tian makes up stuff, don't listen to her. The Mashiach has not yet been here, so how can he have been murdered by the Romans? Nonsense!!!

yes, it sounds very strict, and sometimes we don't like being told what to do. I think that the best thing to do is to make it positive. Learn the beauty of being tznius and how it's a great mitzvah and we are greatly rewarded. And by being tznius and doing other mitzvos like shabbos candles etc. may we bring mashiach closer

Tregellius Gesenius (a Jew from Germany) before discarding what is the wisdom of the ancients and of Daniel in the Bible since Daniel studied such things. The Messiah has been to earth many times. He was Melchisedec, King of Salem, that Abraham the Patriarch paid tithes to. The Messiah was in the firey furnace in Babylon with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Babylon at the time of Daniel. If you get a good reference Bible and look up theophanies which are the appearances of God, you will find many appearances of the Angel of the Lord which is the Messiah. You think the Messiah only comes as the Lion of Judah because you do not study the Bible. He came as a sacrificial lamb and like many of the Prophets before him, was slain. That was Satan's defeat since by death the Messiah reclaimed the title to the earth that Adam lost to the devil. If you do not wish to believe the Messiah came as a sacrificial lamb and was slain, then the Lord may not hold you accountable since the eyes of the Jews (only) were blinded so the Gentiles could be grafted into the faith with Jewish roots. Am I Jewish? My great, great, great grandfather was John, Earl of Gilbert of England. According to the Dictionary of Surnames by Oxford Press, the Gilbert family of England was originally Jewish which converted under persecutions. My great, great grandfather Jabin Gilbert moved to America where there was more religious freedom. But for you to say a real believer in the Messiah who came as a sacrificial lamb is not a Jew is in error. Those with saving faith are grafted onto the Jewish faith and are Jews in their hearts if not all are Jews in their geneology. Better to be a Jew in one's heart inwardly than to be a Jew outwardly who rejects the faith of his/her fathers.

yes- 60 years ago.... I am not surprised, but the same mentality is still alive in the religious persons under discussion in this TB. what happened 60 years ago is in the past- I doubt very much if there is a living person in the whole of Europe that still believes that Jews have horns-- I am however surprised that in Jerusalem in the orthodox community there is a new topic of contention every week , correction- this is the 3rd one in the past 6 days....where people believe a woman who is not wrapped up from head to toe is a harlot, there are presently 3 threads running over demands by the community in question. It is pretty ridiculous when the absurd outnumbers the real news.

Wasn't it not too long ago Beit Shemesh was more of a suburban community? There was a mix of people. Now it looks as if it is becoming Hareidi. It's not the easiest place to be without car on Shabbat-it's kind of getting bigger.

Didn't anyone notice that the booklet requested that people dress in the given manner in the HAREIDI neighborhoods. I'm sure that the authors of the booklet would like all women to dress in this fashion all the time, but they didn't request that. All they asked was for this in the HAREIDI neighborhoods.

from head to toe

...through my neighborhood!!!! And why are these guys so obsessed with sex anyway?

but still act like hoos, it's not what you wear, candles r good also in church, it's a bleasing.

will they dress as "normal" people ? Will they respect the secular feelings ? Respect and tolerance are to go in BOTH ways .

I'm almost sure that there are retarded people in all faiths . When there is something Jewish related in their places , i will know it . Otherwise no interest for me to go to their sites , it's their business , NOT mine . A bon entendeur salut [ try to understand what i mean ]

your level : the same as this K. : the Dead sea one : UNTHER ZERO .

Supposedly that foul BO is a primitive "sexual" scent, so technically they are being immodest, too. Oh, and it's also "unclean" by the way, which is another favorite insult they project onto women.

not sex in and of itself. Job in the Bible made a covenant with his eyes not to look upon a maid. Adultery starts in the eyes and then in the heart and lastly in the body. The effort to avoid adultery or fornication or temptation is a worthwhile avocation, considering the consequences of sexual immorality such as STD's, loss of God's blessings, unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock, abortions, 3 and 4 generation curses. It is no small consequence to sin against one's own or another's body. Some do that for sport, you know. These fellows have the opposite approach and instead of seducing and abandoning and fornicating, they try to do better than that. So what's wrong with that?

I know what you mean- and I agree- my point was: there are loonies and retards in every religion- it always amazes me to see just what convoluted arguments pious people can come up with- and where they find the bases for the new 'inventions'- I had at one point the illusion that maybe Judaism was a step above it- but when I read Ynet I am having second thoughts. Thanks Charles- I appreciate your sensible and calm way of answering questions and countering TBs- it makes it worthwhile to read TBs-

It is fascinating to me that they use the same phrase used by the Muslims who complain about "denigration" of Islam: we must not say certain things or dress a certain way so as not to hurt their feelings. In both cases, either the people making these statements are very thin-skinned or else they are attempting to emotionally blackmail the rest of us. Nobody has the right to make such demands of others on such a basis.

It seems to me that you did'nt understand me , no problem . It was a very polite way to say that those are OUR problems . Regarding Judaism . Do you think that those Catholics of Eccone [ mgr Lefevre i think was the founder but died ] represent catholicism ? The same with those extremist Jews . For me , a secular , and for a great part of the religious Jews , they are NOT representative of Judaism . They gave you a wrong idea of Judaism .

Women-no ugly elbows, and don't show your slit!

The way I see it: there is the Catholic church then there are churches that separated at one point- and within all those there are sects... smaller groups with more extreme, some quite exotic ideas....they all are usually called Christians, although their ideas are often miles apart- the only common denominator is they believe that Jesus is the Messiah..... this separation is, as I understand somewhat similar in Judaism.... Judaism as the religion and xxxx Hassidic and other groups, orthodox, ultra-orthodox .... and no I do not think they speak for the majority of Jews either, neither religious nor secular. I mean they are all Jews- but there the similarity ends... I observed thought, that any extremist group here is much more vocal, violent and demanding than any sect I have ever encountered- this is very interesting. It has not changed or influenced my interest in Judaism.

To # 1, Avi ----To join the Taliban?, you must be kidding. They represent the Taliban in Beit Shemesh. Like them and all sex maniacs, they beat the hell out of their women : washing, cleaning, cooking, making children (min. 1/2 dz.),segregated everywhere; bus, school, shops, beach, in prayer,( they must have a female god). my advice for a counterattack --- plaster the town with pictures, including their mail boxes, of gorgeous gals, in sultry attires. tell them that's the way we like our women. Maybe they will leave town and emigrate to Iran...

...really turns me on. Having them covered head to toe is straight-up sexy. When I go to the beach and see chicks in bikinis, nothing is left to the imagination. Don't even get me started on those hotties in Burqas.

and deliberately want to look like provocative sexy california chicks (I'm not talking about women in knee-length skirts and conventional summer attire which I have no problem with) WILL definitely and inevitably will bring a curse down on the House of Israel. Cherchez la femme, indeed. I'll add that I find it sad and worrisome for Israel's future to read the vitriol of the posts here directed against the pamphlet authors and against defenders like Rivka (the fact that she's not Jewish is irrelevant-- she's clearly more intelligent than most posters, even if "far out").