Opinion
The holocaust of Jerusalem
Yair Borochov
Published: 30.07.09, 00:09
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44 Talkbacks for this article
1. Tisha b'Av vs. Shoah
Hymie ,   Sydney, Australia   (07.30.09)
I just find it so bizarre that the Rabbis declare a fast day for the destruction of the temples where tens of thousands of people perished, yet a genocide where we were slaughtered in the millions gets no Rabbinic recognition of its own. It's a bit bloody strange.
2. Mourning
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (07.30.09)
I do not agree with the gist of this article. Why feed into the psychoses of your enemies and remind them of having inflicted so much harm on you and made your lives so miserable for so long? Celebrate your survival and let the world know that you will continue to survive and thrive, and that all their efforts to destroy you are a waste of their time. The best revenge is success and Jews have earned the right to be proud. Maybe sooner or later they will get tired of giving you more reasons to celebrate and gloat and leave you alone. If survival isn’t worth dancing and celebrating, what is?
3. secular in JErusalem
Nicole ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.30.09)
Am I the only one that is insulted by this article?
4. neither temple was destroyed on the ninth of av
rg ,   Jerusalem   (07.30.09)
The temples were destroyed on the 7th - 10th of Av. First temple destroyed: Kings II (25:8) - 7th Av Jeremiah (52:12) - 10th Av Neither of these days is the 9th of av, there is only a gemara in taanit intimating that the fires were lit on the 9th of av (possibly to justify the tisha beav custom) Not all jews care about judaism or jewish history - its presumptious to assume that we would care about this. Stop preaching!
5. Broadcast live from thekotel
israel   (07.30.09)
Public users worldwide will be broadcast live Mhkinot special live broadcast for 24 hours every day i Av Msrid straight home Mkdsno the Western Wall http://www.jerusalem2.co.cc
6. to my Orthodox friend
eddie ,   london   (07.30.09)
Firstly I am not "secular", but I only accept the Hebrew prophets and not the later men who were not inspired in Nevuah. Next, the Tenakh does not say that the Temple was destroyed on 9th of the 5th month (av), but it was either the 7th or the 10 of this month. Fasting was not decreed by Jeremiah, and in fact he told the exiles to build houses, plant gardens and procreate. And Zechariah the prophet was asked for his opinion on this and other man-made fasts, and he declared that G-d asked if peopel were fastign for Him? Instead, Zechariah telss us to practice Truth and compassion as the older prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah) taught us. Fasting and self mortification are nto required or commanded by G-d. Only 1 day a year, that is Yom Hakippurim. If we keep truth and justice, we can have these days as days of joy. Yes, many evils befell ancient Israel, but it happened on other days too. By keeping truth and Justice, we can avoid more evils. By hating ourselves in self-denial, we then hate others equally, and perpetuate the evil that caused the past disasters.
7. This was not the first Holocaust and mourning is useless
Genuine Tosefta ,   Tveria   (07.30.09)
The first Holocaust was when the Kingdom of David split in half and made each half too weak to resist enemies. The first Holocaust was when the Hebrew tribes fought each other and killed the sons of Ephraim. This made us weak and unable to throw off the yoke of the ancient Philistine Greeks (not today's fake ones) Instead of mourning we need to keep repeating the lesson from our own history to stay united, determined to defend this country and get rid of the enemy from within.
8. The holocaust of Jerusalem
Sarah rembiszewski ,   Israel   (07.30.09)
I thought the author should know and remember that today, in the post-Nazi era, the term "Holocaust" (always with a capital "H"), is only used for the very unique event, the murder of millions of Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators.
9. What about the Muslim Blood.
Muqtada ,   Iraq   (07.30.09)
Each and everyday Jews pouur blood of Muslims, They kill Fathers, Childern and mothers of palestinains. So did you put into account to those you made Orphans. in the 22dys war in GAZA how many orphanes did you cause ????
10. stupid, stupid stupid, he doen't know his own history
ghostq   (07.30.09)
it's not Jerusalem, and stop over using the holocaust. the bad situation didn't asociated with jerusalem only, what about the split of the Israelits into 2 kindoms after the first temple, he should get real.
11. I am not insulted by this article
AK   (07.30.09)
As a matter of fact, I am grateful for it. I have never heard about this fast before, but, after reading this article, I read The Book of Lamentation -- for the first time. I must admit that I was affected by it.
12. eddie, fasting is actually quite healthy.
AK   (07.30.09)
13. remember this day
gmail ,   israel,holon   (07.30.09)
and G-d will remember you in the building of the bet hamigdash. G-d bless israel and all those who bless her.
14. hear some fact
yechiel ,   london   (07.30.09)
during the destruction of the 2nd temple, 1939 years ago, the amount of Jews killed by the Romans, tripled the amount during the holocaust, yes! 18 million Jews were slaughtered! remember this day, for it also reminds you that this is our land, a long time before islam came along
15. TALKBACKER NUMBER 9.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (07.30.09)
AS A NON-JEW, I CAN ONLY CONCLUDE, THAT WITH SUCH SICK COMPARISONS, AS THIS TALKBACKER PUT FORWARD, THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY PEACE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND THE PALESTINIANS. THOSE PEOPLE HAS ALL THRUTHS AS LIES, AND ALL LIEAS AS THE TRUTHS, AND THEY MEAN IT AND INSIST ON IT AND WILL DIE FOR IT. THERE IS NO MEANING WHATSOEVER TO SPEAK WITH OR TO SUCH PERVERTED SOULS. BECAUSE ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN HELP THEM, AND HE WILL NOT BECAUSE HE CAN NOT, UNTILL THEY CHANGE THEIR MINDS. BUT ONLY DEFEAT IN AND DEATH IN WAR CAN DO THAT. GOD BEVERE !!!. Orao.
16. # 15 do not rush things please
Jamal   (07.30.09)
every thing has to take its time
17. TALKBACK NUMBER 16.
ORAO STRANKA. ,   TSARIGRAD U SRBIA.   (07.30.09)
every thing has to take its time Jamal (07.30.09) SURE THING - THAT IS WAY I CAN WRITE THIS IN ADVANCE, AS IS WRITTEN ABOUT THE PHILISTINES/PALESTINIANS IN THE WORD OF JEHOWAH - JESAJAH CHAPTER 11., verses - 14But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; FROM - 12And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth- 14But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; AND - " EVEN OF THEM WILL BE A REMNANT TO OUR GOD" !!!. BEFORE THE REMNANT COME TO BEEING, THERE WILL BE A DESTRUCTION OF THE REST, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE. SO TAKE YOUR PIC IF YOU UNDERSTANDS. 0rao.
18. to #17 the idiot jamal ignor the grim situation
ghostq   (07.30.09)
in Iraq sunis explode themselves in shiis mosques and shiis explod themselves in sunis mosques, on weekly basic, nobody count the dead cause nobody cares my estimate is preaty high more than in cast lead but than again nobody cares. they just follow propeganda and not the truth.
19. Disgraceful article
Smith ,   TA, Israel   (07.30.09)
This article is pure, ignorant, filth. The Shoah cannot be compared to anything in history. The destruction of the temple was not systematic, organized murder because we were Jews. We, or at least some armed fanatic minority who took power, believed Simon Bar Kochva to be the Messiah. He led a rebellion against Rome. He annihilated an entire Roman legion. Three-years later the Romans had crushed the rebellion the way ancient people did. Enslavement and exile. It doesn't make it right but it wasn't because we were Jews. It was because we were rebellious. Turns out bar kochva wasn't the Messiah. The Shoah was unarmed, innocent, helpless people slaughtered for no reason other than hate. It doesn't compare and will never compare. If I ever meet the author I will punch him in his ignorant face. PS - If the destruction of the temple teaches us anything it is the dangers of arrogance and unfounded belief we, a small power, can overcome an overmighty great power. Like the Holocaust it teaches us there is no God and there will be no Messiah so we best keep our wits about us and not make the same mistakes.
20. No 9 Muqata : yes! we celebrate this on Yom Haatsmaut!
Tevye ,   Chelm   (07.30.09)
21. #12 and Michael Jackson
eddie ,   london UK   (07.30.09)
if you do it for health that is your private affair i personally do not enjoy fasting, nor the bingeing before or the headache and sickness afterwads Yom Hakippurim is enough - once a year, so as nto to forget, and yet not so frequent that you fast every other month if you like you can fast throughout ramadan, but that is also not in the Torah.
22. No. 6: Inaccurate statements
Daniel ,   Thornhill, Canada   (07.30.09)
Though both Temples physically fell on days other than the 9th of Av, the destruction which we mourn was in fact on the 9th of Av. The Talmud relates that the divine presence left on the 9th. G-d thus permitted the destruction on the 9th. This date is the date of the spiritual destruction. Though we mourn the physical destruction as well (mourning continues until mid-day on the 10th of Av; only the fasting ceases on the night of the 9th), the physical destruction could not have occured without the spiritual destruction. Secondly, we do not simply mourn only the destruction of the Temples, though this is the main focus of our mourning. The Mishna lists 5 events that we remember on this day and there have been a number of events throughout our history which occurred on or around the 9th of Av. Setting aside a day in the calendar to mark such tragedies is a (minimal) gesture of respect in honour of the victims and marters whose lives were taken on this day and it also serves as a reminder that none of these tragedies would have occurred had we not fallen spiritually and been exiled from Jerusalem and the Land of Israel. That is why we read Kinnot (dergies) on this day as well. These are sad poems lementing the persecution of Jews throughout Jewish history recorded from the time of the falling of the First Temple to as recently as the Holocaust. The 9th of Av is thus a day of religious, national, and historic mourning by Jews from across the spectrum.
23. #22 irrelevant statements
eddie ,   london UK   (07.30.09)
Firstly, you rely entirely on the talmud and deny or ignore the Tenakh. I quoted Zechariah and Jeremiah - you simply act as if they were "reform" minsters. Next, I agree wiht a principle that you raise, ie the spiritual destruction led to the physical. However, whereas for the 1st Temple, we knwo it was the persisten idol worship , the spiritual destruction of the 2nd temple was in fact deliberately carried out by oneo fht Talmud's so called "sages", Yochanan ben Zakkai. He polluted the High Priest and Cohanim with the impurity of the dead, rendering the Temple impure. He then tried to install his own regime of new testament halachot. The entire purity of the Temple was desecrated. To cap it all, the same man betrayed Jerusalem to the Romans, in exchange for him setting up his new religion in Yavne, whiel the Temple burned. So the mourning, correclty, should be for the spirtual destruction which took place, namely the invention and implementaion of the Mishna and Talmud!
24. #19, I disagree
eddie ,   london UK   (07.30.09)
It seems you have some ideas but based on wrong beliefs. Remember, we , a small power, remnant of European SHoah, fought the powerful British Empire, and kicked their butt out of Israel, and then fought many Arab armies from established nations surrounding us, and kicked their sorry assets out of Israel. Then this refugee Jewish people, small nation with no military background becomes a mini superpower, thanks to our Jewish scientific tradtiion develop nuclear power. In this 2009 great economic depression, Israel is one of the strongest economies, lending to other coutnries, and nwo finding natural gas. And you call this coincidence, or is it evidence that God is protecting us?
25. The Holocaust of Jerusalem
Adi Schnytzer ,   Raanana, Israel   (07.30.09)
What a pity Yair didn't read about the survey before he wrote his piece. Otherwise he might have decided it was best to remind us all of the Israeli government's disgusting behavior towards the recent Holocaust survivors on this day of all days. Six million is far greater than some hundreds of thousands.
26. #23 Well, Eddie, you're certainly bitter.
Roman ,   Lod, Israel   (07.30.09)
Yochanan ben Zakai prevented a Sadducee high-priest from desecrating the Temple with his false version of the ritual of the Red Heifer. Furthermore, the priesthood at the time had been corrupt for years - the title of High Priest was bought and sold with hard coin, time and time again, and hence the number of High Priests who did not last beyond their first (and last) entry into the Holiest of Holies within the Temple was very high. He did not try to institute any "new testament" anything - he tried to prevent the further corruption of the priesthood and, for that matter, to stop the violent rebellion that had grown entirely out of control - the two Zealot factions were so busy fighting each other that they only stopped their mutually assured bloodbath when the Romans began scaling the walls of Jerusalem. It turned from a small revolt over Greek religious scuffles, Emperor Nero's erratic edicts, and taxation into a full-scale revolt that we never had a chance of winning. And in that period, everyone knew what Rome did to people who went for a full-scale revolt. Yochanan ben Zakai did his best to prevent that, even as the Zealots burned Jerusalem's grain stockpiles to make people desperate and focused on war. By the way, let me guess... Karaite? Or just a very active sympathizer or Karaite interpretations and abandonment of Oral Law?
27. #26, Roman - we lost the Temple and should be bitter.
eddie ,   london UK   (07.30.09)
Roman, is that a pun, or your real name? :) False in your meaning of the word is what the Torah prescribes. Hence, the need for YBZ to change the Torah, and suggest that impurity is immediately erased upon immersion, rather than what the Torah says, after nightfall. It is interesting that a) you pay no attention to the Neviim. b) The insurrection of the Hasmonean Karaites (who accepted TNK only) was victorious and they (pure) beat the impure (Greeks). It is only becasue the rabbis were impure (as per YBZ's phoney laws) that they were unable to beat the equally impure Romans (no pun intended). The zealots were family of YBZ, and still peverted the written Law, so they have no value in this debate. I also suggest you study Yehezkel hanavi, on what he says about Bnei Tzadok, and also his criticism of those who wear Shatnez in the Temple (the "oral" law also desecrates the Temple by changing the garments of the Priests to the forbidden shatnez, even though it is utterly forbidden by the Torah.) So the question is, what is corrupt, the written torah (as you claim) or the oral law?
28. very touching
proud to be jewish   (07.30.09)
I thought it was well written and helped people of our generation relate to what happened then. some of the reactions are horrific. imagine someone in the distant future reacting like that to what we know as the Holocaust of wwii?
29. The holocaust of Jerusalem
Marcos ,   Massachusetts   (07.30.09)
Yair, this old Jew asks you to provide, so that no one could accuse you of falsifying history, any recorded evidence that "hundreds of thousands of children, elderly, and young Jews ... were exterminated and murdered within a few days" in Jerusalem in the year 70 CE?
30. Inappropriate attitudes in this forum
Ariel ,   Earth   (07.31.09)
Going by some of the attitudes expressed here in denying the importance of one day in the calendar (9 Av) to mourn all the tradgedies that befell the Jewish people in the last 2000 years, it seems that in less than 1000 years from now, some of us will stop commemorating the Shoah because "it may or may not have happened all those years ago to the extent that we believe". Not to mention, we will probably also stop commemorating Yom HaZikaron because "those wars were so long ago and who knows if it happened the way we've been taught". No. 22 is right: taking one day to remember all the suffering of our people is the least we can do.
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