Rejecting violence and the vigilante is correct. There was no government or Beit Din authorization. Therefore, the murders were vulgar vigilantism that must be condemned. But sympathizing with the depraved is supporting their deviancy. Two wrongs are just two wrongs. The deviant have no "right" to force their deviancy "in the face" of the rest of society. No one should see right in either of them--that is calling evil good (Yeshayahu 5.20). Calling evil evil--toeivah toeivah, depravity depravity and deviancy deviancy--is telling it like it is, obeying Yeshayahu 5.20. That is NOT hatred. If the person resists the temptation there is no penalty. That is NOT hate, nor hate speech (which, of late, has come to mean speech that isn't politically correct as viewed by the media--this message was refused many times since first submitted on 08.02). As I've stated often in the past, hatred of homosexuality, like hatred of pedophilia, oediphilia, rape or murder is hatred of the action, NOT hatred of a person who is tempted but wills himself or herself to resist that temptation. On the other hand, when the deviant insist on forcing their depravity in the faces of those who reject depravity (and the faces of their children) then they have no right to complain when the inevitable reactions occurs. Moral people will not stand to have depravity rammed down their throats. It's not unusual in the modern world for people to move to wherever is more accommodating to their dreams and desired lifestyle. I renounced Christianity and abandoned everything to move to the far side of the world in order to be able to live according to Torah/Halakhah in the historical Holy Land of Yisraeil. Depraved homosexuals belong, would fit right in and can move to San Francisco or perhaps Denmark or Amsterdam to live their depraved way of life and celebrate their depravity as they wish until Yom ha-Din. The rabbis should declare them goyim (kareit) and, if they don't or can't move on their own, deport them. Torah repeatedly commands havdalah, to remove the evil from our midst. That doesn't have to mean capital punishment (and never means vigilantism). It can, and must, be done without murder. But that's just one more department (along with failing justice for agunot, focus on ritual and skirting logic to the exclusion of greater Torah principles, failing to combat superstition, failing to even minimally educate those who are supposed to teach Torah, failing to rid their own ranks of corruption and incompetence, contra-Torah reversions [of conversions], etc.) that the rabbis aren't doing their job--leading to breakdown in the social fabric of Yisraeil. Logical Halakhah is right and ordained by Torah. But many rabbis are failing us miserably and those who know better aren't standing up like Torah requires. In all of the above cases, the rabbis are standing idly by the blood of their brothers; the epitomy of the רעי האליל (roi hâ-elil; feckless / ineffectual shepherd) of Zekharyâh 11.17; Yekhezqeil 34.2-10, 23; 37.24 and Yirmeyahu 10.21; 23.1; 3.15. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-keeper & Orthodox Jew Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Hating the act , not the people , you wrote . This remind me of antisemites who hide their antisemitism by telling they are just anti Israelis . Calling Gays depraved , deviant is inciting to hate , but this , hate , is known to you who hates everyone who contradicts your fake "person" . WE are not living in the bible time , it's the 21st century mr fake Jew , and yeshu promoter . Tell me who allowed you to use the "ministry of absorption" heading on your website [removed by you a coward who feared justice ]

Football (not soccer) provides an excellent illustration. When the ball pops loose in the end zone, all of the players ignore it and focus on destroying the hated players on the opposite team. Everyone who knows anything about football understands that has never happened. Everyone on the field knows the difference between controlling the football and hating the opposing players. This despite the fact that the football is usually carried by a player. If football players can always discern between hatred and controlling the football, and between the football and the player carrying, passing or receiving it, why can't we expect politicians and the media to ascend to the same level of intelligence as football players? Perhaps it is the uniqueness of the complexity of American football; it's demand for precision, timing, complex teamwork and blocking patterns, pass patterns, etc.? Just too intellectually challenging for media, politicians and "activists"? Despite not liking soccer, it seems that regularly on sports news I see players who don't understand that basic, kicking at the opposing player when the ball isn't even around and getting thrown out of the game to the detriment of their team. Lack of discipline combined with lack of intelligence... that describes our politicians, media and various "activists" who play the media and the political system in "western" (democratic) countries. When they can succeed in having opposing speech classified as "hate speech" based solely on demagogy, despite it being documented fact and true, then they transform free speech into controlled media, speech and argument. It's long overdue to view the vicious falsehoods of misrepresentation, lies and slander as "hate speech" and insist on factual and logical correctness instead of today's strident and often slanderous demagogy that produces swings from one extreme to the opposite extreme (e.g. from murder to supporting immorality and perversion) with nothing anchoring a moderate position in between--or even allowing a moderate voice when demagogy is overwhelming political correctness. The media, more than any other element of society, must learn to distinguish between intense feelings about an issue, which must be aired without muzzling, and ad hominem misrepresentations, lies, slander and pedagogy (incitement) that directly lead to this sort of incident. Truth and documented fact is citing reality; never incitement. Ad hominem misrepresentations, lies, slander and other logical fallacies are always pedagogy / incitement; never an intelligent or logical debate or discussion of an issue. Tolerance is about accepting the intelligent and logical airing of an issue, with all of its intensity and without muzzling; not necessarily embracing the opposite point of view. As the long conflict here demonstrates, while these lessons aren't all of the answer, there will be no progress until these lessons are learned. Meanwhile, the media continues to admit, and often promote, ad hominem misrepresentations, lies, slander and pedagogy (incitement). None of these fall under the protection of free speech. All, if the perpetrator can be identified, are remediable in a court of law. The media should stop concealing criminal speech. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-keeper & Orthodox Jew Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Okay, this is way politically incorrect in today's sheep-like atmosphere, but let's get some perspective. All murder is abhorrent. That does not mean that we should now be subjected, in the schools, to having homosexuality shoved down the throats of impressionable children as a 100% equally "normal" behavior for them to choose to embrace. Also, when was the last time that Shimon Peres got up and addressed a rally or even a memorial of others who were murdered? What about the daily murders on the roads? What about the murders inside and outside of teen pubs? We have an enormous accounting to give for our collective and individual behavior, but telling children, "Go, experiment, sexually and be happy! Anything goes!" is not going to create a happier (or more normative) society. There are different opinions out there, but they will no doubt be smothered by the bleeting of the sheep.

"Pedagogy" was a clicko (computer counterpart of a typo... except affecting a lot more instances.

Exactly right! The implication is that discerning ad hominems--attacks against a person rather than a documented and logical argument against an issue--is the fastest and most accurate way to expose someone who is either ignorant and knows no better or is intellectually bankrupt--has run out of legitimate arguments and, rather than conceding being wrong, resorts to the cheap, malicious and endless stock of ad hominems. Find an ad hominem--personal attack against the messenger--in a message? Recognize the wrongness of the message, dismiss it and move on. Sad, with tragic consequences, that the media and politicians won't do that instead of substituting--indeed, often promoting for profit-- demagogy and political correctness for legitimate debate of facts, documentation, hard logic, and scientific method. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-keeper & Orthodox Jew Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Relativism, "postmodernism" in scholarly parlance, argues that nothing is absolute; everything is relative to something else. Thus, there is no absolute morality or good, nor absolute evil. Not only is philosophy of relativism the authority for homosexuals (as well as pedophiles, etc.), it is the philosophy that drives the constant "who did which to whom first" and "which is in retaliation for what" that provides the endless fuel for conflict while ignoring any absolutes--especially targeting the (Jewish) Bible as a historical document (including in archeology)--of historical documentation or fact. If they wish to succeed, advocates of the Bible will have to learn to confront and deal with this philosophy of relativism (postmodernism). See "Today's Satan," discussing a Univ. of Michigan research paper about postmodernism, in our Web Cafe at the website below. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-keeper & Orthodox Jew Advocate for Logic as Halakhic Authority Welcoming Jews & non-Jews www.netzarim.co.il

Israel should separate State & Religion, like all democracies...allow civil marriage, allow same-sex marriage, equal rights for all its citizens no matter what religion, race, color , disability or sexual prefferance....AMEN! Maybe then Israel can finaly truly join the 21st century!

We should teach our children to be more tolerant toward others , toward ALL others , in any direction . If someone from a certain sector commits a crime , it's not the whole sector who is guilty , it's this person , only him/her . Our children should also know that there are other kinds of people , religious , seculars , gays . And should know them . Regarding Shimon Peres adressing a rally . When was a rally against the road criminality organised ? Why do you think that rallies against this murder have taken place in some places abroad ? It's the agressed community who sets up such a rally , not Shimon Peres .

that must not be difficult for you to answer [ again a personal attack ? ] Give me the names of those 26 Orthodox Rabbanim who acknowledged your "conversion" Give me the name of a responsible person at the ministry of absorption who allowed you to use their name , in English and Hebrew ] as heading for you website Tell me why you wrote that the Head Rabbi send you his blessings , while it was only a polite formula used for everyone .

Ironically, your use of the word "democracy" goes against your ideals of protecting the minorities... In a true democracy, where the voice of the majority rules, the wishes of the minority are overruled. But that's a side-issue... There are VERY FEW places where gays can actually get married. Does that mean that the majority of the world is backward? For what it's worth - Amsterdam/The Netherlands, despite its tolerance of sexual perversion, is far from tolerant when it comes to its non-white minorities, especially those who hail from former colonies... Israel is well ahead of much of the Western world in trying to constantly balance the wishes of its religious and sexually deviant minorities ;-) Not an easy task...

In a democracy the wishes of a minority are also considered . Otherwise why are Jewish , muslim and other religions allowed , recognised , and even subsidised in overwhelming catholic countries ?

It was because of Jewish people chosing not the blessing and life but chose death and chose a curse that brought the fall of the temple. Learn your Torah.

So return to your church with this employee , you disgusting guy .