patient.

good point ,well said

The national religious have a new mission: attract the hassidic community to cross over into the former's ideology of religion, patriotism, and productive work.

The problem is that Qadima intentionally lost both the Lebanon 2 war and the 'Aza war. This intentional loss of face and more importantly loss of safety for Israel has resulted in tremendous indescribable moral damage to the people. We must be honest and admit "our treasonous leaders have betrayed us, and made us intentionally lose two wars in succession". Once that admission is made, we can begin to discuss the problem.

JESUSALEN is the revelation of isa messiah,jitgalut 21

... and far more comprehensively than this brief article. The haredi community is starting to recognize that they can't simply "learn Torah" while living off the public teat. The numbers performing national or IDF service is rising, albeit slowly. More are opting for an education that will allow them to earn a proper living, rather than live in poverty. The Arab community, of course, will have to recognize they have obligations as well as rights, and those rights come as individuals, not as a separate community. Hassan is already licking his lips, waiting for Israel to collapse. But our people have been around longer than his, and we've faced such challenges before.

But I hope so much that you are wrong.

is what they call it in english. there's still plenty of room in uganda.

Yael, I will speak to you in plain and simple American English: people of your ilk with your god damned brain dead "Israeliness" make me sick to the stomache. Israel is derived from "Yisrael" - "fighting with God". It is Hebrew. And our language is called Hebrew because our ancestors were originally called Hebrews. Later on we were known as Israelites. Later on we were known as Judeans or Jews. But we were always the same people. You admit that we are ancient nation. Now you claim that a "new people" called Israelis have been born. Sorry, that's not my identity. I refuse to be an 'Israeli" according to your baseless description that lacks identity, purpose, goal and history. Trees with shallow roots will fall in the storm even if they number in millions. But trees with the deepest roots can withstand almost any storm. Your comment on the "Israeli identity" is precisely the problem. That most Israelis/Jews in Israel have no IQ when it comes to statesmanship and politics is evident and obvious to me - but I doesn't mean that I have act like my sabra countrymen. My national, ethnic and cultural identity is ancient - it covers 4000 years of history, ethnicity, race, tribal belongings, bloodline, religion and intellectual and spiritual philosophy, culminating in Jews dominating science, technology, scientific discoveries, culture and business for the last 200 years. You cannot Yael, sever 4000 years off of our identity and pretend that we have landed on earth like manna from the sky, presumably with no purpose in this land. Your argument is precisely why anti-Semites such as Arabs inside and outside Israel have such appetite for destroying us. If "Israeli" to you is something new and artificial, you are basically saying that anti-Semites are "right" in their argument when they don't want us here. Greeks of today are proud to be descendants of an ancient race of people but they do not necessarily believe in the Greek pantheon. In the same way, the Jews have changed through out the ages and accumulated science to compensate for blind faith, but our tribal identity is the same - only we should apply other laws. I do not agree with the Haredim. But I do not agree with your empty, new, artificial, pointless, meaningless and stupid "Israeliness". I am a Jew, a Hebrew, an Israelite, a Judean, and I adher to our traditions without being religious. But I also believe in the dignity and freedom of the individual - something that both you and some Haredim trample to the dust. Modern laws is not a matter of identity. It is a matter of the mechanics of laws of society. But your identity sits in the blood, flesh, heart and mind - not in some dry laws and regulations. It is about time that native born Israelis realize once and for all, no matter how difficult it may be for them, that Israeli, or Israeliness or Jewishness is the same and encompass both religious and secular Jews, because we are the same people. It is time for us to start behaving that way. But maybe sabra Israelis are not mature enough - just like you said. An old man with the mind of a teenager is a good metaphor for many of today's Jews/Israelis.

When the religious cross over the tipping point, the geo political positions to the Arabs will change in a very meaningful way. Those that throw rocks at buses will be dealt with. And the Arab population will understand that Israel is a Jewish State.

If the secular Jews in Israel would have more kids instead of one or two or just a dog, they would remain in the majority. Stop whining!

You say :“Your argument is precisely why anti-Semites such as Arabs inside and outside Israel have such appetite for destroying us.” YES, that is precisely the problem with the Left -- they don’t mind to damage the State of Israel from the inside. You say : “But trees with the deepest roots can withstand almost any storm.” You are absolutely right. SO, Yael Gvirtz should get accustomed to the VERY old history of Israel. He should appreciate (and thus give due merit to) that history -- instead of trying to belittle (and thus destroy the value of) that history.

it will help...

Your comments were profound and I cannot hope to match them but I will take another path. The writer is right, as far as I can see, in her analysis of Israel as it stands today. We are churning from aft to stern in a stormy and unpredictable sea. Our political rudder, the Knesset, is unable to steer us properly. At a political level, we have such a belief in democracy that we enlist every minorities opinions and then find ourselves represented by so many political parties that we are either paralyzed or forced to make too many compromises. No other country that I know of has made it so easy for every small, nuanced political party, to be represented and have a voice in our parliament (the Knesset). At the political level, then, we require a major change. At the level of human identity at which you were writing, that Jews must be fierce in their pride as Jews, I also tend to agree. I said "tend" because I'd like to digest all that you wrote.

Poor Gavirtz is stuck in the same quandry as most non-religious Jews or Jews by accident of birth. They have no idea of who or what they are, of what their purpose is, or of what Eretz Yisroel is. HaShem and he Torah mean nothing to them. For them, Israel is not The Land that HsShem gave us thousands of years ago but a new, secular state like any other with very old, useless real estate! The Torah defines what a Jew is, what Israel is, and what the purpose of his and its existence are. Those attending religious schools learn Torah, and it gives them a beacon and imparts meaning and purpose to their lives which is why so many are attracted to it, and why secularism is rapidly shrinking as the chelunim either become frum or become yordim. Israelis like Gavirtz are rudderless, clueless, and aimless; not knowing where to turn but feeling there is an urgent answer there just within his grasp - if only he knew where to look. The answer, Gavirtz, is very near to you!!

population from becoming a huge majority that controls the country? Kadima and Labor will minority parties of no consequence.

he told that in jewish believe above all the people and all the structures is the heaven he means -god - he is not haredi and iam not a jew but i like this jewish belief --now i think the auther said from above he think it is the goverment as they think jewish belief is for haredi only ---so iam smiling

Yes - Herzl can indeed get the effort prize for trying to help the nation. Nice effort - but now as his brainchild is gradually reaching adolescence we are led to reevaluate his real achievement. Perhaps he will go down in history as someone who made a few tremors, but a real earthquake has eluded him like it did to the greeks, romans, spanish, napolean, stalin, hitler to name just a few. The only one whose ideals have kept him alive and pumping to this day is the Jew with his Torah. It is true that we have had harder challenges than this, but it is also true that it was always the Torah and only the Torah who has guided us through it all in surity since the days of Adam all the way through the years of the 'ism's and through these painful years of emptiness all the way til Moshiach. Then our great ones such as Abraham, Moses, Shmuel HaNavi, Rav Ashi, Rambam will still be taught to our children, whereas little Herzl and his followers will be long forgotten in the rich tapestry of the history of our nation. Are you a REAL Jew, who has withstood the test of time for millenia, or will you just be one of those offshoots that got lost in the annuls of history.

Can a Leftist explain the Left? The Left is hates the Religious Jew, and considers any religious child born or any religious house built a tragedy. And this is despite the fact that the Religious Jew will gladly invite the Leftist to his home and give his life protecting the Leftist. At the same time, the Left make every effort to promote and expand every aspect of Arab-Muslim nationalism, even though the Arab-Muslim culture calls for all Jews to leave Israel.

thats fine. with the exception of 3 things....will they be able to defend themselves if they don't serve in the army? will they be able to have some sort of place among the nations of the world if they espouse a primitive world view that includes women sitting in the back of the bus? will they be able to run the economy if they don't work? only when the haredi fix these problems will they be able to survive in the post-herzlian israel. otherwise they will be a large group persecuted by the arabs who will quickly take over...reminiscent of the rest of jewish history since the destruction of the temple. or is that what they want - to be the eternal persecuted victims?

Your hatred blinds you. Most of the religious work and pay taxes, no problem there. Combat units are already filled with the religious. Once they are a majority, army bases will have separation of male/female living quarters to allow the more religious to serve. And contrary to your strange remark, the Haredim are not more primitive than "nations of the world" such as the Japanese or Norwegians who slaughter whales, Saudi Arabia with its slave labor, Egypt with its 70% literacy rate or Iran with its legal rape of men and women.

The very question of secular vs religious laws is a proof that despite being an ancient nation and civilization, Israel is still immature. I does not matter if Jews are religious or secular or traditionalist secular or traditionalist religious, religous or orthodox -we are all Jews. In the same way as the US is a secular state - I am not referring to the level of spiritual belief and faith among Americans - I am speaking merely about the state itself - that state, is secular. The problem with Israel - not Israel as in the Israeli/Jewish people, nation, tribe or civilization, but Israel as in official institutions and the government, is indeed schizophrenic - it maintains status quo between the religious and the secular and allows the religious to have a say beyond their numbers. Yael, if you lack back in time in the first decades of modern Israel, you'll see many confrontations between orthodox and the secular people. Ultimately, I do not share your pessimism concerning the future. I'll tell you why. And we can thank Netanyahu for it. Netanyahu decided a few years ago when he was Minister of Finance in Sharon's Government, that the state would cut subsidies and social allowance to families with many kids. He said it is unreasonable for tax payers to pump in money into the system because some parents want 5-10 children. Netanyahu said that it would be unfair financially speaking for the vast majority of Israelis to pay tax money to people that don't work. What will happen? The Orthodox realize that they cannot produce babies en masse for ever nor can the Arabs. We see more and more Orthodox entering the work force and use their wisdom in the high tech sector of the economy. At the same time, you know and I know that it costs to feed children, clothe them and finance their education at college or university, so Orthodox and Arabs must take the wise decision to get fewer babies. 5-10 babies in the 1700s or 1800s when industry in Europe needed a mass population of illiterate poor and uneducated children to do industrial labor, parents with 5-10 childrebn were lucky - they would make a hell of a buck. But as industry got more advanced, industry got more scientific and advanced and needed educated peoples with MBAs. Financing this for 5-10 children is a nightmare. But financing 1,2 or 3 children is bearable. I foresee that the Jews will dominate Israel demographically for ever if the current trend goes on anf that both secular and religous Israelis will transform. Secular Israelis will become more traditional and nationalist - and yet be modern people driving cars and using computers, and Orthodox will get substantially fewer children, and engage in the work force and in the army. Avigdor Lieberman suggested that becoming a high ranking politician would depend on army service. What is also interesting to note is that the religious Jewish parties are tiny and attract the support mostly by Orthodox. I believe less than 10%, possibly 8% are Orthodox, and secular non traditional Israelis are probably 45-50%. Others are secular traditonalists and religous. Whining and complaining is a typical Jewish trait. Jews have existed for 4000 years. If Jews/Israelis can't become more mature after 4000 years, when will they ever mature?

So Chaim what do you have to suggest? (END)