Opinion
Guilty without a trial
Moshe Dann
Published: 16.10.09, 00:38
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1. Where is the Criticism of over 100,000 Dead Iraqis?
Dav Lev ,   Burbank. CAUSA   (10.16.09)
Tens of thousands of civlians have been killed in Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan by US and coalition forces, yet the Red Cross is strangely silent.. The US does apologize when civilians are confirmed killed and does make adjustments...less drones, etc. However, it also says that when mosques, schoolls, etc. are used to hide weapons AND OR terrorists (not part of the country's army per se), it is legal. Israel needs to stop any apologies..state the facts (at it's highest levels/both civlian and military (coordinated) and get on with protecting the country. The Red Cross is demanding that non-combatants in warfare be exempted from attack...well, let it apply throughout the world, and not single out the Jewish state. Terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan are killing thousands each year...where is the red cross? To Israel; ignore the Red Cross AND the UN, they are not in your interests.
2. Set New Parameters?
Christy ,   Boston, US   (10.16.09)
They can try and set all the parameters they like, you don't have to be hemmed in by them. The UN has no enforcement power over anything. The only power they have over Israel is the power Israel gives them. Don't give it to them. The report is very unfair and should not be used to set any parameters at all. These parameters are meant to box Israel into a corner where she can't wage a defensive war. This is nonsense!
3. Jew-haters are obsessed with the state of Israel.
Ron B. ,   Lod   (10.16.09)
The hatred of Jews has always been protean, readily revising itself to reflect the idiom of its age. At times, it targeted Jews for their religion, demonizing them as Christ-killers or enemies of the true faith. In our day, Jew-hatred expresses itself overwhelmingly in national terms: It is the Jewish state that the haters are obsessed with. “What anti-Semitism once did to Jews as people, it now does to Israel as a state,” the British commentator Melanie Phillips has written. “First it wanted the Jewish religion, and then the Jews themselves, to disappear; now it wants the Jewish state to disappear.” As to Islam and anti-Semitism : http://xrl.us/bjrdf
4. Mr. Dann's information about the position
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (10.16.09)
and influence of the Red Cross and his analysis of the situation were both excellent and much appreciated but his conclusion vis a vis our inability to right this situation is wrong and dangerous for our well-being. What we need to do is to develop a method of communicating to the international community (like al Jazeera) about our plight, the social fabric which makes up the state of Israel, our socio-political concerns, our relationship with the Arab communities both within Israel as well as in Judea and Samaria, Jewish history, Israeli history and a description of modern times with all the confusion, problems and triumphs we experience. It would be fascinating. One man I met, Chaim Goldman, said that he and his group of media experts had been working for years to open up such a satellite channel but to no avail. Jewish philanthropists have always agreed with the idea but never came through with funding. Government officials (including Danny Ayalon, deputy foreign minister) have always said it is an interesting and reasonable idea but have never taken action. So we never make our political case to the international community at large and everyday life in Israel remains practically unknown. Can anyone contemplate what changes would be made if we were able to broadcast twenty-four hours per day in Hebrew, Russian, French, English and Arabic. Mr. Dann has thrown up his hands on the Red Cross issue and concludes that there is nothing further we can do. He is not only wrong but his conclusion remains very despiriting to Israelis and friends of Israel. This commentary is meant to be a correction.
5. nothing is changed
......   (10.16.09)
law of power or law of justice
6. The solution to terror.
Ron B. ,   Lod   (10.16.09)
Victory is the key word not peace, because peace is not an option in this part of the world, and because there is only one solution to terror : a military solution. You do not talk to terrorists, you fight and defeat them. As to the world opinion, we will take care of it AFTER the total victory. Victory is needed to prove to the Muslims in general and the Arabs in particular that against their ethos of death stands the ethos of life, protected by the arms of democracies that are resolved to punish them where it hurts most as explained at : http://xrl.us/biz8x
7. Cutting all relations with Gaza will defeat Hamas
Defeat Gaza ,   without a weapons   (10.16.09)
Israel should stop all trade with Gaza. Pressure Egypt to feed Gaza above ground instead of using tunnels.
8. This is why Israel should insist
Danny   (10.16.09)
on either people being taken to trial or a public apology. It should also aggressively be suing people for libel. Start with Goldstone.
9. Guilty without Trial
observer   (10.16.09)
Since when has this been a problem in Israel? Media trials fuelled by information leaked by the prosecution are a regular feature of daily life in this country, destroying families and reputations for political ends. So now the State is receiving some of its own medicine. Won't do them any harm at all. But it definitely won't make them think why it's happening.
10. ICRC
Stefan ,   Tel Aviv   (10.16.09)
This is an excellent article. A clear description how Israel has been made the Jew among nations.
11. Shame on Goldstone
Koppers ,   Manchester   (10.16.09)
A man in his twilight years stabbing his co-religionists in the back like this. What a terrible legacy to take to you grave.
12. #8 Danny
Lisa   (10.16.09)
a bit late, don't you think? Israel had a chance to tell its side, defend its actions- it did NOT co-operate because it assumed the report would be unfair- it is- you got exactly what you asked for! The information all came from ONE side- of course it is a one-sided report- what did you expect? It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, does it? The chance was there- it was missed- again... not the first time
13. To #3
Ken ,   Europe   (10.16.09)
Ron the world don't hate the Jews. What it hates or hated are Occupiers. For example Nazi Germany, the USSR, or today, its Israel. I'm sure once Israel leaves its occupied lands the Israelis will be excepted again. Look at Germany or Russia, people don't hate them anymore, there part of the world. Israel too can be part of this world but first they must stop their Occupation. PS this don't mean getting out of Gaza and sealing the borders, this is like putting all the Jews in a concentration camp and saying there not our problem anymore!
14. Ken-Nazis didnt seal Camps-they murdered Jews inside indust
Alan ,   SA   (10.16.09)
rially. What do you mean by Israel will be "excepted" -was that a Freudian slip?
15. #12 There had been two probes, Lisa.
Roman ,   Lod, Israel   (10.16.09)
One was when Olmert was still the PM. Back then, there was official state cooperation with the investigations. The second probe was, from the beginning, set to investigate only Israeli war crimes (defining their existence before the report was even written). Goldstone's one high point is that he insisted on defining the report as looking into Hamas war crimes as well - IE, war crimes in general, not just on Israel's side. He simply failed to provide. Keep in mind that while the state did not cooperate with Goldstone on this one, the civilian Israeli populace did - Sderot residents stated that the final version of Goldstone's report omitted the vast majority of their testimonies. I'm not surprised, considering the entire fact-finding mission was set by the UNHRC - an organization where countries violating human rights on a daily, regular basis are the majority. And which has been criticized, time and time again, even from within the UN's structure, as playing political games of "find the scapegoat" - IE, obsessively focusing on Israel to avoid any mention of countries in who have representatives in the Council itself, or who have allies in it.
16. To #14
Ken ,   Europe   (10.16.09)
Allan my point was sealing the Gaza is not an option to peace with Gaza, it just makes it into a concentration camp. In the past tb'ers from israel have said they got out of Gaza to get missles back in return. What do they expect, did the Jews love the Nazis? As for excepted, I mean just that, just like Germany, and Russia are excepted today. There not perfect perhaps but I think as a European there excepted. Ps what does "excepted" mean to you?
17. To Ken
Leon ,   Melbourne, Australia   (10.16.09)
English may or may not be your first language, it isn't mine. The word you are looking for is "accepted", which just illustrates your level of education and intellect. Read a book about history and both your knowledge and spelling can improve. As for Germany being ACCEPTED, being completely demoralised twice may have something to do with a change in their behaviour.
18. The Simple Answer to Goldstone
Old Solly   (10.16.09)
is that Israel renounce all claims to Gaza, and allow open borders with Egypt as well as unfettered access to the sea. Any attacks can be treated as war, Hamasastan becomes a global problem (and Egypt's), and the West Bank is addressed separately. The 3 state solution!
19. Ken-Open Dictionary to understand what I wrote to you Sir
Alan ,   SA   (10.16.09)
Please also please dont write about Concentration Camps and Nazis and things that happened before you were born that U dont know about Thanks Ken ...
20. #13
Harold ,   Syracuse, USA   (10.16.09)
Well said. Gaza is the largest open air prison in the history of man kind.
21. HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!!!
AVI Dagan ,   avniel' Israel   (10.16.09)
22. goldstone's work
mohson   (10.16.09)
There is no way to fight rocket launching hamas hiding in civilian areas but the way israel did it in gaza. To be charged with war crimes means hamas and hezbollah win. Goldstone is now the hero of the arab terror movements worldwide.You are spoken of in the highest terms by arab dictators. You will be zsimi judge of the arabs. I call on you to announce to the public that your report was biased, based on hamas lies and ask to take your name off of it.Otherwise, yoiu will be reviled by the jewish commonwealth.
23. #13: One does not occupy one's own land
Steve   (10.16.09)
I have long advocated annexing all these territories that have historically belonged to Israel, including Gaza, the WB (Judea and Samaria), etc. Gaza should be re-settlled by Jews and formally annexed into Israel. Enemies, enemy combatants and sympathizers are not citizens. This is the history of the US and the rest of the civilized world.
24. #17 Leon, thank you for the language lesson,
Ken ,   Europe   (10.16.09)
English was never one of my strong points. As for Germany being completely demoralised twice may have something to do with a change in their behaviour, if that's what it takes for Israel so be it.
25. War is nasty business
Bill Staar ,   Chicago USA   (10.16.09)
Pointing fingers now does little to help those who died, or their families, or to those who were terrified. This military campaign didn't just happen, events lead to confrontation. Yes Israel did give back Gaza but sealed it up and made it impossible for any type of normal life to flourish ie; an event, Hamas kidnapped a soldier ie; an event, Israel entered the territory and killed people on the other side of the fence ie an event, Hamas launch thousands of rockets ie; events,. The point I am trying to make is, both sides are, or have been wrong at one time or another. Remember when you point your finger at somebody, your other three fingers are pointing back at you. This conflict has gone on way to long it's time people on both sides got serious about solving it.
26. ICRC is wrong
MichaelF ,   Silver Spring, MD   (10.16.09)
"According to the ICRC, Article 51 of the UN Charter does not allow Israel to act in self-defense against terrorists because 'they are not a state but organized individuals among the population it occupies.'" Maybe the ICRC should be informed that Hamas, which by the way started the war, is the de facto government of Gaza.
27. Hamas was also cited
MichaelF ,   Silver Spring, MD   (10.16.09)
Although the charges against Israel in the Goldstone report are not new, and have already been disproven by both Israeli and independent investigations, I do give Goldstone some credit for correctly charging Hamas with war crimes. Unlike the accusations against Israel, Hamas' crimes have been independently verified. But no one wants to talk about the charges against Hamas.
28. #24, Ken, my pleasure in the language lesson
Leon ,   Melbourne, Australia   (10.17.09)
Now to history lesson. The ACCEPTANCE of Germany has nothing to do with occupation as you have put it. Its because they have changed their behaviour after being completely demoralised twice. So Israel will be doing the demoralising to Hamas.Fatah and all the other terrorist group, so that they learn once and for ever that Jews are here to stay in Israel. Once that happens and the Palestinians ACCEPT that Jews are here to stay, there will not be for Israel to defend her civilians from 8 years and 8000 rocket attacks.
29. To Ken
Seth ,   Israel   (10.17.09)
Ken, why is it that before any 'occupation' was Israel attacked and hated? Was it the formation of the state? If so, then why were the Jews of the British Mandate and Ottoman Empire constantly attacked and brutalized?
30. Letter to a typical self hating Jew who supports Goldstone
dan rosenthal ,   monsey, ny   (10.18.09)
To Myron from Dan Rosenthal: Dear Myron; Please don't take this personally but if you support giving up land to the Arab terror regimes who any idiot can determine will never want "peace' with us then I must sadly conclude that: a) You are not an Orthodox Jew at heart (although you might think so). b) You are not "Leshem Shamayim" to use your expression. You might ask me why I use such harsh words. After the fraudulent so called "peace process" of Rabin and Arafat the clear results were NO PEACE (land for NO Peace) more terror an intifada which caused over 2,000 dead Jewish men women babies etc and a withdrawal from Gaza which resulted in thousands of rockets been launched from Gaza and the Lebanon war. Any Jew who still supports such an insane appeasement process of self hate AFTER THE CLEAR EVIDENCE TO DATE (as mentioned above) has got to be either insane blind to reality or if none of the above then a self hating Jew. Furthermore you cannot possibly define yourself as an "Orthodox Jew" and support such a process because of the following reasons: a)- The Ramban in his Sefer Hamitzvot states that it is forbidden to give away parts of Eretz Israel to the gentiles even if they offer peace and even if We liberate this land before the Messiah comes. I assume that as a self defined "Orthodox" Jew you are aware of the fact the Ramban was one of the Rishonim and anyone who defines oneself as an Orthodox Jew listens to a Rishon's opinion (not to Myron's opinion). B)- Orthodox Jews believe that it is Halacha Esav Soneh Et Yacov . (an axiom in all generations as proven by history that the goyim will always try to destroy us). Therefore thinking that you will get peace by yielding land to the Arab terror regimes is against Halacha. In fact it is against common sense (did Chamberlain get peace from Hitler by giving him land at the perfidious Munich Agreement in 1938? Did anyone in history achieve peace by caving in to undemocratic murderous terrorist regimes. In fact have the Jews ever had "peace" in our entire 3000 year history with the Goyim? My friends and relatives also live in Israel and would also love to see peace but unlike you they know that there will never be peace with the murderous Arabs and their Anti-Semitic undemocratic terror regimes . So please Myron don't use the hackney cliché "I live in Israel and I want peace for my children " argument because the VAST majority of other Jews now living in Israel disagree with you AS PROVEN BY THE RECENT ELECTION WHERE THE RIGHT WING PARTIES WON BY A LANDSLIDE WITH OVER 75% OF THE JEWISH VOTE. Myron you area typical example of the type of person that Santayana wrote about when he said: "Those who do not learn from their historical mistakes are destined to repeat them" Myron you and your self hating ilk who lack all national pride and self respect have learned nothing from the Holocaust etc ( that the Goyim will always hate us and will hate us even more if we show weakness and cave in). It seems that you are so riddled with blindness and self hate that I wonder if I can even reach you but I shall publish this response in the hope that others will not be ensnared by the Pro-Arab defeatism which you espouse and the acceptance of the deviant so called "Jewish" cults which you so stanchly defend. No my friend Myron there can be no unity between those who believe in Jewish pride and self respect and those that are left wing defeatists and self haters such as yourself. We live in 2 different camps which are on a collision course and I believe that truth and justice will win out against defeatism and self hate. Thank you Dan Rosenthal Please see our blog( Click below): WWW.AMERICANJEWSAGAINSTOBAMA.BLOGSPOT.COM Please forward
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