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Rabbinical ruling causes havoc on elevators
Associated Press
Published: 02.11.09, 15:03
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1. "extra electricity" By that reasoning you couldn't open a
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (11.02.09)
refrigerator door on Shabbos because warm air would get in and sooner or later the compressor would start. You couldn't turn on the faucet or flush the toilet because that lessens the pressure and the water pumps start, if not immediately no matter, they will still start. The prohibition is supposed to be against using fire and while an electric heater can induce a flame, an elevator motor is not allowed to burn. If you think HaShem calls electricity used to bring you to the 8th floor on Shabbos is really fire, then walk. If you think HaShem has no special love for the people who twist and turn and torture a simple command into a rule that is so strict it could give you a heart attack then ride the elevator and be happy it is Shabbos. Jews are supposed to love and enjoy Shabbos not be tortured by nine flights of stairs because some rabbi thinks being the most strict person in the world will get him something.
2. oh not the elevators again!
observer   (11.02.09)
people living in high apartment blocks in NY are also faced with this problem and don't complain. Elderly and unwell people can find exemptions depending on their condition and requirements. This doesn't really make news, not for the third or fourth time, anyway.
3. Surprise!
David ,   USA, exile   (11.02.09)
Imagine if you will my total shock when I read through this entire article and then when I got to the end, NO TALKBACKS! Is everyone at a loss for words or is it also a sin to do takdbacks on articles dealing with picking ones nose?
4. All of these particular and detailed rules
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.02.09)
really seem to take the joy out of celebrating and praying. Originally, or so I've read, the Baal Shem Tov rebelled and that was the beginning of the Chassidic movement. If this is so, the Chassidim have since turned back and are now more like the traditional orthodox against whom the "Master of the Good Name" originally rebelled. At any rate, I won't get caught up woshipping in that way and never will. I could also say the same about getting caught up in details and rules for people of any other religious persuasion. The elegance and miraculous are pre-empted by the details and rules so that one has no time to contemplate and be open to true visions. My commentary has been prompted by how fatiguing I found the controversy over elevators. And "Yes", I know there will be many detractors and critics. Nonetheless, no religious authorities will ever get in the way between myself and the Creator and his/her helpers of which many abound. Incidentally, I never bother others about their religious notions and methods of prayer or non-prayer. It's not my business. I am just expressing (in this commentary) about where I am at and about my own belief system.
5. Oh for the love of Pete
Al   (11.02.09)
Will Ynet grow up and stop this religious Jew bashing? You have your new Israeli Russian Goyim to wax poetic about so run along and play in the cesspool.
6. The last thing we need is yet another "humra"
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (11.02.09)
There's no increased sanctity, no spiritual value, in adding yet another stringency. Living as a simple Jew is hard enough.
7. Ynet seeking out extreme positions again!
religious woman ,   Israel   (11.02.09)
What has Ynet to gain by trawling for the latest Humras. All this stuff is not news and in other religions extreme fringe groups constantly seek ever more stringent rules to make themselves more special and "holy". Our great teacher Moshe would never recognise their version of Jewish lifestyle. And not because elevators had not yet been invented!
8. Mental illness is alive and well in the Haredi community !
Yisrael ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (11.02.09)
BTW, I am sure I read in the Torah you shall live by it and not die by it. Seems the Haredi have it backwards ! Another blow for dissing yiddishkeit and making it look foolish to non-Jews and seculars. Say, isn't that a chillul Hashem ? What do they care ?
9. Good exercise.
Jock Strap ,   Jerusalem,Israel   (11.02.09)
Climbing stairs is great exercise,all the doctors will vouch for that. So the rulings of a nutter have a positive outcome. Interesting.
10. biased reporting at it worst
Shalom   (11.02.09)
If you had an interest in doing proper journalism you would know that the elevators are in the main used by elderly, infirm and women with small children. The vast majority of able-bodied men and women have always preferred to use the stairs than rely on a leniency. There is nothing new here - those unable to climb the stairs who bother to ask, will be given a ruling that they may use the elevators, as there are authorities who permit them, so one doesn't have to be overly stringent. I have climbed up to the 10th floor many times while staying in hotels - good to walk off the amazing food!
11. Somewhere along the way, the idea of sanctity in life was
Jacob Blues ,   New York City   (11.02.09)
derailed. While I can understand the desire to push kedusha into all aspects of life, one can only wonder about the need for an actual discussion over whether or not cleaning out dried mucus in one's nose is shomer shabbos. I can understand the interest in a detailed oriented focus on the mitzvot, but in truth, there are still plenty of far larger issues (no pun intended) that should take precedence over the 'devil in the details' approach to halacha. There is a point where stringency meets narishkeit, and the wise sound like they come from Chelm.
12. The devil is in the details~or~when laws become idols
TT   (11.02.09)
When a person becomes immersed in a tiny community, they lose perspective. Halacha is all about perspective, otherwise no yeshiva would have ever existed. When the over-examination of movement and thought occur, people lose their connection to G-d and focus it upon themselves. To command people to do so is utterly wrong minded. In a tiny society, where only a handful of people make the rules, the rules themselves become the route to fame and power. The rules themselves become golden calfs. This ridiculous rabbi steps over the brink and takes prayerful people with him as they examine elevators and nose cleaning. He is not a man to follow.
13. #7 - religious woman
Df ,   Beer Sheva, Israel   (11.02.09)
Eliyashiv represents an extreme fringe group ? I think if you go into the charedi community you will get a very different opinion of him. I do agree that for some odd ball reason, the so called "Lithuanian" ashkenazim need to make their followers suffer in the name of religious fervor. Does more suffering mean you are more pious and guarantee you a place in the world to come ? What ever happened to Beit Hillel ?.
14. Rav Henkin,ZT"L said Shabbat Elevators Are Mutar
Yerach ,   Jerusalem,Israel   (11.02.09)
Rav Henkin,ZT"L was one of the greatest poskim of the last generation. Is Rav Eliyashiv as great as Rav Henkin,ZT"L.? People like him are only going to drive Jews away by saying everything is asur. Any idiot can say something is asur only a true talmid chacham can say something is mutar!!!!
15. What's the difference ?
ZAvenger ,   San Diego, USA   (11.03.09)
Would someone tell me the difference between Halacha and Shariah laws?
16. MORONS!
Semper Fi! ,   San Diego, USA   (11.03.09)
I'd like someone to explain to me the following: the whole issue is about whatever the idiots use to call " Shabbos" and Saturdays being a resting day because allegedly God told Moises that everyone but the rabbies had to rest on that day. Tell me idiots, how come someone who climb 7 or more floors is more rested than someone who pushes a simple freaking switch or other to get to the same place. You guys are retarded and this is an insult to challenged people. All the morons that blaim Ynet for communicating their insanity, the russians because they aren't crazy goons like them or try to explain the incomprehensible, please leave this modern country and go back to your statle or better go and reach the monkeyface in Iran. That's rather your cave country than Isral, barbarians... You can also join Hamas killers to start a religion of peace + religion of hate venture....
17. To all of you:
ziona ,   belgium   (11.03.09)
Thanks to this 'craziness' and 'extremism' Judaism is still alive. Yes this is exactly what keeps us going, and makes us not forget our Torah and Halacha. Think of it, how else can you explain a nation that went through all levels of hell ,to stick to its God and law? I think that all those who chose not to be part of it, can't possibly critisize -because they don't understand-
18. #14 - Yerach
Shalom   (11.03.09)
If you want to be honest with yourself, you need to ask a close talmid, who has become a posek, of Rav Henkin zt"l. Sometimes information comes to light, which wasn't available at the time. Or perhaps something has been changed in the way the elevator operates. It is possible (though I am not saying either way), that if Rav Henkin was asked the same question today, that he would answer differently. Check it out.
19. It occurred to me that
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.03.09)
this sort of concern and dispute, over elevator use on Shabbat or, for that matter,nose picking, were the kinds of subjects which eastern European Jews used to discuss, further internalizing themselves and defending their respective communities from the external (European) world until the Haskala (Jewish enlightenment) came about in the nineteenth century and all that Yiddish intellectual energy and intelligence, compressed, as it were, rushed outwards and not only added to the modern age but defined it. Now, imagine if our Charedi population were to focus on science, math, art, literature, history, law and politics instead of concentrating on interesting but ultimately meaningless concerns, what an eruption of creativity would take place!
20. Ynet's bias
Jack Auden   (11.03.09)
Ynet is the idiot newsite for news to be distorted and people to yell. Rav Elyashiv is only one opinion among many orthodox Rabbanim who discuss Shabbas elevators, including Rav Aurbach and Rav Henken, the latter who openly stated his disagreement. This is not affecting all Haredim, only some. Furthermore, the crocs story is a load of croc - Rav Elyashiv said it was not appropriate to have such nice and comfortable shoes when the commandment against wearing leather shoes is designed to avoid just that. He said it is not advised, NOT ASSUR
21. Bunnie It is worse than you think
Eric ,   Tel Aviv   (11.03.09)
If you consider this ruling to the logical extreme (not going too far mind you) you will discover he has ruled out many of the devices designed for Shabbos use: - Wheel Chairs: having them move requires more electricity (especially uphill) - Shabbos ovens and stoves on timers: when the timer reaches the set time it increases the electricity too. Apparently this 99 year old Rabbi has decided that if it was around when he was a kid it is ok, otherwise it is forbidden.
22. Associated Press
NYC Girl   (11.03.09)
Leave it to the AP to trot out a laundry list of idiotic rabbinic rulings, like the one on nose-picking, even though, for the overwhelming majority of Israelis, the pronouncements made by some 99 year-old lunatic fringe rabbi, concerning whether or not you can remove something from your nose on the Sabbath, is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. However, if, for example, it turned out that ass-wiping was prohibited during certain hours in observance of Ramadan, I wonder if the AP would be equally as eager to run with that story.
23. To # 19
Philip ,   Afula ,Israel   (11.03.09)
You got it right ,yes , we would all benifit greatly from the added brainpower.
24. Nose Picking
Avi A ,   T/A Israel   (11.03.09)
I wonder how long the revered Rebbe spent picking his nose,looking for hairs and then deciding if the bonanza was Kosher or not. Can just imagine the Courts of the various Rebbe's sitting around discussing bogeys,we have come along way in 5000 years Well done lads
25. Why are Rabbis making Judaism impossible
Rich ,   Toronto, Canada   (11.03.09)
to adhere to? It takes a greater effort and more work to climb the stairs in an apartment building than taking a Shabbos elevator. It's just craziness and no sane Jew should adhere to this new ruling.
26. On a lighter note (a true story),
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.03.09)
my grandson, age eight, recognizing that my Hebrew is limited and my knowledge of Jewish ritual even more so, graciously offered to become my "Rebbe". I immediately accepted his offer (right in front of his parents) and told him that from now on I would direct all of my many questions to him. Last year, just before Pesach, he told me that one of the rules which could not be broken was that it was "asur" for a Jew to go to the toilet during the entire eight-day festival. Looking astonished, I thanked my grandson and told him that I was ashamed but, nonetheless, I would henceforth be unable to abide by this law of Pesach and would have to break it. However, I also promised to go and tell his teacher how knowledgeable and wise he was and how much I appreciated his learning and his teaching of Torah. I think it was at that point that my grandson became worried and told me that he was "just kidding" and that he was only "joking". After he moaned a while (long enough), I promised not to accompany him to school to meet with his teacher after all. He suddenly began to look more visibly at ease (until the next "rule" for being a Jew episode). But you know what, I think I like and value my "Rebbe" a lot more than the one who seriously advocates against utilizing an elevator to attain the tenth floor.
27. Rabbis and moral authority
Naftush ,   Israel   (11.03.09)
Ease off on the "coercion" talk. No rabbi has coercive power. At the most, a rabbi's views carry the clout of halakhic reasoning and his own probity. Rabbi Eliashiv has enough clout to stop people from using Shabbat elevators. That's moral authority, not coercion. Now, name one secular leader in Israel who has enough moral authority, say, to dissuade people from littering.
28. Rabbi's Lifts and Nose Picking
Naftbush ,   T/A Israel   (11.03.09)
The most esteemed Rabbi Eliashiv will only have influence with anybody who takes him seriously - for most of the secular world having Rabbis pontificate about Nose Picking and most likely which side of the toilet paper to use indicate an ability to spend their lives asking if the bottle was half full or half empty Moral Authority in Political life is earnt no more or less than in theological circles and it only takes a few minutes of debate on hairs in bogeys to make you realise that as bad as our politicians are rewritting the book of life about sticking your finger uo your nose is not the way forward Let us discuss real issues the right or wrong of nose picking will see us end with a sticky argument
29. Rav Elyashiv did not say that !!!!!
Rambam ,   Jerusalem   (11.03.09)
A psak halachah announcement was signed in Israel immediately prior to and released after Yom Kippur 2009, seemingly prohibiting the use of all elevators on Shabbos. This announcement was carried in the Hebrew edition of the Israeli “Yated Ne’eman” and, later, discussed on an in-depth follow-up program on “Kol Chai Radio.” However, reports immediately after the initial disclosure admitted that Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv did not affix his signature to the announcement. Rather, those making the release, assuming prior comments, attached his signature. Though other leading halachic authorities had signed the announcement, the release is being viewed with great hesitation and skepticism for many reasons. The words and signature attributed to Rav Elyashiv are as follows: “On the subject of elevators on Shabbos, they are not to be used going up or going down.” Should these be his actual words, they are open wide to interpretation. As noted later herein, Rav Elyashiv did not prohibit “Shabbos Elevators.” He prohibited elevators on Shabbos. Needless to say, every observant Jew knows that ordinary elevators are not to be used on Shabbos (except for emergencies).
30. some comments to the talkbackers
chava ,   yerushalayim   (11.03.09)
1) About the refrigerator -- Many of us have refrigerators that have a Shabbat mode. This not only turns off the light so we're not turning it on every time we open the door, but in some, it sets the cooling system to work by time rather than temperature. That way, nothing a person does (like opening the door) will affect the cooling system turning on. If people don't have this, they usually unscrew the lightbulb on Shabbat, and some people only open the refrigerator door when the motor is already running. 2) About timers that turn on hotplates and lights --- These timers are set ahead of Shabbat. Yes, they turn on electricity at a certain time, but no person is doing anything on Shabbat to cause that to happen. 3) In the elevator situation -- the Rabbi is saying that the person is doing something on Shabbat to change the electrical situation. You can follow what he says or not, but at least, you should understand what he's saying before criticizing him.
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