Jewish Scene
Conversion with confusion
Nissan Shtrauchler
Published: 08.11.09, 09:26
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1. on the one hand, everyone that served in the army
ronen   (11.08.09)
know that these people conert in the army since its very easy there. almost like converting to christianity. on the other hand those who served in the army, should be able to marry. the rabbies need to understand that by allowing all jews to have citizenship, they brought mixed couples in which sometimes the non jew is the mother. so now there are quite a few non jewish israeli citizens. its not fair to harass them.
2. Nightmare for goyim but a relief for Jews. THANK YOU RABBIS!
Shalom   (11.08.09)
We must thank the Rabbis for keeping the Jewish nation in tact and preventing non-serious conversions. Unlike xtians, we do not want any non-Jews in our midst. Goyim who want to join us, must follow the laws fully. These non-serious, fictitious conversions are GOYIM GEMURIM and have no part whatsoever among the Jewish holy nation.
3. Does the rabbi have to crawl up my butt to certify my every
Mea   (11.08.09)
move, or shall he just carry on with viewing my life through a pair of binoculars? The issue here is that many rabbis dishonor the state guidelines for recognizing the legitmacy of conversion. It is PREPOSTEROUS that a person completes the process and their paperwork is not recognized, based upon some so called "investigation" of their private practices. This is not a Heredi state. it is a Jewish state, and the state shall standardize the issue of marriages and the process of conversion or it will eventually find itself being sued. The separation of synagogue and state should be established. It is outrageous that the Lord commands Jews to treat converts well, but that Haredis have been allowed to sin horribly using the state as their tool. For the nation of Israel, the Haredis who have taken over these areas have become like lice. This is bad for israel, bad for people who desire to become Jewish (which we know shows they have a Jewish soul) and bad for the world. It is s-i-n-f-u-l, plain and simple. This is because two people are now discourage from Torah, discouraged by the state and will likely marry outside the hipa and live in sin. Take back the Torah from the sinful Haredis.
4. TO Chief Rabbi Haim Bloy
Benjamin ,   Singapore   (11.08.09)
Rishon LeZion is the fourth largest city in Israel, and rishon was founded by Russian Jews around 1882 it was the second Jewish farm colony established in the 19th century . Of course Petah Tikva superseded Rishon in many ways There is a verse in the bible…. "First to Zion are they, and I shall give herald to Jerusalem (" ראשון לציון הנה הינם, ולירושלים מבשר אתן‎). The name Zalman David Levontin is not alient to rishon.You know David ben Guron, you know Baron Rothchild ? Go take a look at Gan HaMoshava ! The Rishon LeZion Municipality was awarded the Ministry of Interior Prize for Proper Management. Now yenpa departed, you idiots want to mess –up. Those new converts are the returning children of Rishon 1882 the Russian jweish Immigrants. Please open the doors. Don’t embarrass fani Blekind, israel Blekind, Shimshon Belkins, Yoel Drublin, Haim Hissin, David Yudilovich and Ben Guron… especially Baron Edmond James de Rothchild and Benjamin Manasseh Meyer of Singapore. To the Chief Rabbinate clerks, cut you craps and cut that jewsih self- hate- listen – YOU OPEN THE FILES AND APPROVE THEM ! We will bring in New York & Singapore to your desk, it will be too heavy for you !!!!!!. Please c.c this to Benjamin Nethanyahu ! ben singapore
5. Why need I say anything when the US State Dept already has
Smith ,   TA, Israel   (11.08.09)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/127349.htm Republic! This country needs to become a secular (Jewish) republic! To hell with the rabbinate! Where is our Martin Lutherberg?
6. No. 2 - chilul hashem to judge
Adam ,   UK   (11.08.09)
You sign our name "shalom" what a contradiction - how dare you judge what you dont know - you will be summarily judged likewise! haredim have set themselves apart like another "sect" more orthodox than orthodox - the self proclaim "protectors" of judaism. It is unfortunate that their "judgments" are causing an enormous chasm in judaism similar to that that caused to destruction of the temple. People like you dont have a place in judaism - there is nothing holy about your perception of judaism.
7. State employees not accepting State conversion
Eric ,   Tel Aviv   (11.08.09)
As there are State employees not accepting State conversion then they should not be accepting State salaries. As the article says "it is not plausible that marriage registrars who are employed by the country and are getting paid by the Chief Rabbinate will make up their own mind whether to recognize documents issued by their employers." So if they don't register converts they should be fired with cause (no unemployment benefits) for insubordination and illegal activity. Also they should be sued personally for the pain and suffering that they are causing these properly converted individuals.
8. To #2
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (11.08.09)
Why do the sentiments of your tb sound almost familiar to a former Mischling???? Self-righteous arrogance and delusions of superiority on anyone's part notwithstanding, there are "Clubs," belonging to which is not necessarily an honor, regardless of time, place and name. As for "follow the laws fully," I have 2 comments: 1. Don't ask more of someone else than for what you, yourself, can't be a shining example. 2. Either that full compliance with the laws hasn't been happening exactly as prescribed or God hasn't been keeping His/Her promises. Which do you think it is??
9. Converts
Batya ,   Israel   (11.08.09)
I know quite a few Russian converts who observe almost nothing. What's the point of converting if you cannot even make the effort to keep Shabbat and Kashrut? Some even keep their Xmas trees since "they can't give that up". The last several years, the Jewish Agency has brought more non-Jews here than Jews. This must stop.
10. Conversion to a faith can certainly be faked since most of
Rivkah   (11.08.09)
the people I met at Roman Catholic and Protestant churches and Reform Jewish temples were fakes. Their lives did not reflect a true conversion to whatever faith they were professing and it was disgusting. The government statistics reflect that: divorce rate and unwed mother rate and so on are about the same for church and reform Jewish members as for those outside Judeo-Christian faiths. BUT Orthodox Jewish temples reflect a better profile of its members, perhaps because they are more careful about conversions. When I was in high school in Tucson, Arizona, long ago the Jews at the school were kinder and more righteous and were rarely from broken homes.
11. eligion
colin ,   `   (11.08.09)
Word of advice to the yougsters that want to get married.Go to Cypres, Italy,America--anywhere .It is cheaper. to have your marraige and honeymoon in America than paying these state payed Rabbis and clerks.Religion is only a fols dream.There is nothing in religion except extortion and belief of idols.
12. #3 Mea You're talking rubbish
Shalom   (11.08.09)
What does "a Jewish state" mean in your eyes? Eating pig, desecrating the Sabbath, going about daily without putting on tefillin and eating chametz on Pesach? Is this Jewish? Is the separation of synagogue and the State Jewish? What nonsense are you talking about? Those goyim who truly want to become Jews have to follow OUR rules. If they don’t like it, let them remain goyim. We don’t need them in OUR midst. “It is outrageous that the Lord commands Jews to treat converts well” True converts who have converted according to Torah by an Orthodox Rabbi are treated very well. Those who were converted by anyone else do not have the status of converts and are considered goyim, whether you like it or not. If someone is not 100% serious about their conversions, they live in sin anyhow and it’s no difference if they “will likely marry outside the hipa and live in sin.”
13. No mitsvot = no jewishness - so difficult to grasp??
fake converts ,   are goyim   (11.08.09)
On top she cheated on rabbis and Jewish religion pledging to adhere to it . Who cares if one served in the army????
14. I totally agree with #2 and #9
A B ,   Modi'in   (11.08.09)
""You do not keep mitzvoth, and therefore we cannot marry you," was the Rabbinate's explanation." This is a total distortion and hogwash! It seems to imply that anyone who doesn't keep mitzvoth can not be married in Israel. Bulls**t!!! The point is that an absolutely integral part of conversion to the Jewish religion is acceptance of the laws incumbent on people of the Jewish faith, i.e., mitzvoth. No conversion can be valid without that acceptance. AS A RESULT the person who "converted" is actually a gentile who NEVER CONVERTED and now wishes to intermarry with a Jew! The job of a Rabbi is to uphold the Jewish religion. He can NEVER circumvent it or destroy it. This may sound politically incorrect to some people, but it's the plain and simple truth. The Jewish people NEVER sought converts. The converts who were accepted were those who were totally taken by and convinced of the Jewish faith and religion, and sincerely insisted on being part of it, and would not be put off by anything. Those sincere converts were always accepted with open arms, and stiol are!
15. #2
(11.08.09)
I'm ashamed of belonging to the same roots, origins, nation, state and whatever links us because we are Jews. Who do you think you are? I my agree with you fully or partially, or at least with your opinion above, but not with your way of saying it, speaking with such an arrogance, almost claiming superiority (you know who you remind me of.? I guess you know..). And last, why including the Christians in the issue, true they accept converts, BUT they don't need to mention the Jews every second. You wanted to sound arrogant and superior yes, yet you sounded inferior in all terms. Pitiful for me as a Jew to have samples like you in my country...
16. shalom is right, this is the law,
very religeous jew ,   israel, holy land   (11.08.09)
if you become a jew then act like one, really be one, you will be welcomed. but if G-d forbid you convert and then don't act on it then how can you call yourself a jew. G-d forgive all of you who spoke in a bad way at shalom and may G-d bless him for protecting the laws of the Torah. "yashar co-uch"
17. mea #3 is right!
observer   (11.08.09)
Of course state and religion should be separated. The religious (ie the orthodox) should never recognise conversions made by functionaries of the state. Let them convert their russian lovers and marry them as well. Each should be given a framed photo of a pogrom as a wedding present. Hard to accept? Well I went for my driving test recently. I couldn't really drive and know very little of the road code, but that bastard that failed me did so because he hated haredim. I bet he would have passed any one of those cute russian girls even if they drove worse than I do, 'cause they still ride OK.
18. The Jewish people did seek converts,
Eliyahu ,   Yrushalayim   (11.08.09)
according to "Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World," by Louis Feldman of Yeshiva University. It is also logical that they would, as the Jewish people were given the instruction for life and life is to be chosen, not deat. Therefore they would want all human beings to live. Forget the Noachide laws for life, all they promise is not another flood. You have to read it again.
19. Separation of State and Religion PLEASE
cas reader   (11.08.09)
As long as the Ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate holds a strong hold on Israeli society by its man-made perverted rules, Israel will NEVER become a true Democracy and recognized as such by the international community. Israel belongs to all Jews irrespective of religious stream. Jews are quick to condemn the Shariah law but close their eyes when it comes to the most ridiculous man-made rules of the Ultra-Orthodox.
20. CONVERT=JEWISH
also very religious ,   jew Michael Canada   (11.08.09)
who the .... is this rabbi not to endorse what another beth din had said?!?!!? if beth din said she was jewish she is and now the rabbi just doing so wrong by embarrassing a convert whatever she is...he can t just make up his mind by himself this is absolutly not halacha!!!!!!!!!!!!
21. Conversion
BAruria   (11.08.09)
There will always be a battle over conversions. The only thing bothering me is the huge number of missionaries who have undergone "conversion" because they feel their yashka wants them in Israel--now they are handing out yashka videos and doing everything in their power to steal Jewish souls. It is more prevalent then you realize. And once the nation has been diluted an assimilated--then what?
22. You know - it hurts to be rejected
David ,   Netanya, Israel   (11.08.09)
You can love Israel, Jews, G-d and His Word, and you can defend the Jews in their persecution. You can learn Hebrew, and many blessing to recite during the holidays. You may even feel the spirit of love and peace to your fellow man. But like me, once you fall in love with a Jewish woman the wolves come out and try to take it all away from you. But now you can’t turn back. You are now hated by the world for being a Jew lover and by those that don’t want you to be a Jew. You’re now hated by both sides. Both your own people and the people you so much love and defend, they despise you. Being rejected eats away at all of the love you have formed. You feel betrayed. You are taught to love the Jew and the “Never Again” mentality, but then they won’t let you fully be one of them. No matter how hard you try, you will never measure up. No matter how faithful you are you will always be less than the nonobservant Jews that were born Jewish and that break every law of Torah. They will wait in the shadows for you to slip up and publically humiliate you even as they march the streets of Jerusalem with their rainbow flags. Yes the secular reject us too. This is why conversion is not an option for me. I refuse to be part of a lifelong test that in the end I may be buried with the Jews or may not depending on how someone else grades my life. The religious will probably harass me until the day I die no matter how Jewish I try to be. But my daughter will be Jewish and they can't take that from her. That is my happiness in life. I will remain a Goy, because L-rd knows they won’t let me be a Jew. But know that from my own flesh I have created a beautiful young Jew and without the help of any of the hateful among us. In the end I may not be buried among the Jews, but I will be buried in the Promised Land and so will my offspring forever. Am Israel Chai!
23. And what about fake converts ?
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.08.09)
Or self proclaimed ones without any proof ? Who believe in their yeshu ? who call themselve "orthodox" Jew but always attack the Rabbanim ? When will measures taken against this kind of deceiving people ?
24. #22--Thank you!
TT   (11.08.09)
I know that plenty of people experience your journey--starting off by desiring conversion so much, but after years of overt abuses, give up on it. It's always like they say, "Let me abuse you worse than I would any animal and if you can still crawl to my feet and beg me I may just allow you a temporay seat at the foot of my table, but never count yourself as one of us." THIS mindset is horribly sinful and yet prevalent among Jewish religious. I am 99 times more observant than any of my sabra friends (who mock me and insinuate that I am somehow 'playacting' a Jew and yet not one of them know the basic Torah) and yet it has become obvious my conversion will never be accepted. This is why I am one of a growing number of people who will practice Judaism privately, without a community. I am no longer interested in being the lackey of some rabbi or his wife and congregation. It's a social club, and a very sick one at that. It became clear that in spite of being told that some of my writings on Torah were scholarly in their approach, because I am "just" a convert they were treated as some sort of convert accident and no one could ever get past the blonde hair, the swedish face and the tendency to smile. Too goy. Nevermind that I am more faithful to the Lord than just about any person I have ever met--it all boild down to local discomfort levels based on how I look. So who wants to be a weekly freakshow? Torah says it is WRONG to not welcome the stranger to conversion. This is because the Lord knows how bad it is among the goyim, and he knows that to spit in the face of someone who may have had a Jewish soul (or part of a soul) is to turn a Jew back into the ongoing holocaust of goyim. Try to remember, that as you suspect we may be "secret christians" (an oft remarked upon thing) you are insulting us as if you were calling a person starving to death in the camps a nazi. Imagine how hurtful that is to hear, that we are the monsters we are trying to get away from. It was not my fault my Jewish father married my crazy christian goyim mother. But it will be your fault if I cannot practice Judaism so that the Jewish soul inside me can live among it's people. That is why your judgements and your disgusting treatment of converts is sinful and horribly wrong. On pessah you open a door to an imaginary stranger--but all year round you shut it tightly against your neighbors who are loving Torah every bit as much as you and often with a desire that has grown for generations inside the human vehicle that wants to bring it home to Torah study and a Jewish life. Like #22, I use to be very interested in becoming part of the religious community, and I worked hard to support Israel. But I have modifed my involvement greatly since realizing that because Israel takes part in descriminating against converts and allows a minority of Haredis to control the demographics of entry and therefore allows the Arabs to eventually out birth Jews--as thousand like me would love to become citizens and practice Judaism not associated with Haredi, I no longer care. Maybe it is the Lord's will that Israel go through another long period of diaspora and non existence--maybe it isn't time for the state to survive and go on and the Temple rebuilt. That certainly seems to be what Haredis seem to want. You cannot tell me otherewise, because you also cannot get the Haredis in Crown Heights to even visit let alone make aliyah. You want it all, and you are willing to sacrifice the nation for your own selfish and immoral gluttony.
25. God bless the Galut !
Ezra haGuer ,   Galut   (11.09.09)
26. Jewish country
Avraham   (11.09.09)
We have this one little Jewish country- let's keep it Jewish!! There should be only one type of conversion, Orthodox, and if a person cannot change his life and observe the mitzvot, then he shouldn't convert in the first place.
27. Real Jews
Miriam K. ,   Israel   (11.09.09)
I know several Orthodox converts who are observant and are accepted as full Jews by others. Their kids have married into families of born Jews, even to children of rabbis. If someone converts and is truly observant, he is equal to all other Jews. I don't think that converts that are not observant should be considered real Jews. They made no changes in their lifestyle, so their conversion is a big lie.
28. 23 What about DNA only racists?
Eliyahu ,   Yrushalayim   (11.09.09)
29. #21, fantasylandthink
mea   (11.09.09)
What tripe, that there have been "huge numbers of missionaries" converting. I suspect this is fear mongering propaganda set out by Haredis to slam the Reform movement. While I intensely disapprove of the Reform movement's soft soaping of all things Halacha, I seriously, seriously doubt that there are missionaries using conversion to gain access to Israel. This is because I know for a fact that no christian feels the need to convert and become a Jew in order to fulfil their lame brain religion. I do know that there are a handful of whackos in one sect who wear tallit and pretend to be "jewish chrsitians" but even they do not convert, so what are you talking about? The subject IS the treatment of sincere converts who have gone before a beit din approved of by the rabbinate. THEY have been treated like garbage by rabbis such as the one mentioned in this story, who believe they can judge a person's relationship with God. And, what I say, and what others here have said is that it is wrong, it is probably a violation of law, and it is sinful according to Torah. Assimilation is an issue, but the way to stop assimilation is to open the door wider, not spit on the people standing there and then slam it in their faces. You CANNOT force people to turn away from the person they love, BUT you CAN make your community welcoming, accessible and loving so that single people will come, mingle, learn and value the thing syou value and live nearer a community and thereby increase the chances they will live a more observant life (even if it is not 100%) and perhaps marry someone in the community. If the only faces you can recognize are the faces of yeshiva students and the ultra-religious and you are a rabbi, you have failed in your role. I think the rabbis have pretty much proven that exclusionary hostility helps maintain the 90%+ Israelis who have no interest in learning a single thing about religion. This is because they feel they have nothing in common with religious people. The first right of return effort should be the right of seculars to explore Judaism -and the second should be the welcome of sincere converts. If neihter of these things happen, the nation of Israel will eventually either have to fold, become Islamic once the demographic slide completes itself or change the rules and allow the 10 million none Haredi Jews into the country. I suggest you start now, while there is time to be flexible enough to create some middle ground that will help maintain the religion. yea, yeah I know, no compromise on the rules--not even an elevator ride or opening an umbrella on shabbot. Sad fatality is like a bad penny.
30. Shall We Have An Inquisition?
M. Martin ,   NYC/Tel-Aviv   (11.09.09)
Now, according to the story, they converted in ISRAEL under the RABBINATE which means they underwent an ORTHODOX conversion. Moreover, it is my understanding that centuries of Halachic precedent indicate that once someone is Jewish by whichever means (birth or Halachic/Orthodox conversion) they are just as Jewish as any born Jew. Accepting the mitzvot doesn't necessarily mean DOING everything but accepting the authority of Halacha and being bound to the punishments for not keeping Halacha. What about people who start out sincerely religious converts and then after indignity after indignity slowly back away from it until they are not Orthodox anymore by any means but do NOT eat pork or celebrate Christmas, etc.? Are these people really non-Jews now? And how do these Rabbis know who is observant and who isn't? Are they assuming they are not observant just because they are Russians? If so then the Rabbis really are being racist. There are Russian Ba'alei Tshuva out there. Also, secular people who are good actors could just bamboozle the Rabbis into thinking they are religious. So how do the Rabbis in Israel plan to go about confirming whether or not converts are sincere? Will they send spies to check on their every move? Put converts under 24-hour surveillance to be sure they are keeping all the mitzvot? It starts to sound more and more like a modern day Inquisition to me every time I read things like this. All I can say is thank G-d I moved back to New York. I will make sure to marry here and will think twice about moving back to Israel permenently.
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