Jewish Scene
Rabbi Yosef condemns Women of the Wall
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 09.11.09, 08:06
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31. A question for Imposter Shalom #14,15,22
Shalom   (11.09.09)
Please can you find your own username, instead of hijacking one of someone who you think shares your views? You are a far less tolerant person than I am, neither do you seem to share an interest in any news other than in "Jewish World" - so do me a favor and - give yourself an identity!
32. Shalom actually I dare because I can...
#16   (11.09.09)
I am a 100% orthodox woman who covers her hair and dresses modestly. Further I keep Shabbat and Kashrut including the removal of challah from the dough when I bake bread. My sons and daughters were all born within the holiness of the practice of Taharat Mishpacha (Family Purity). My three sons are orthodox rabbis and my three daughters are married to Orthodox rabbis. And as a widow I call on God to deliver you the appropriate punishment for not having guarded your tongue and for falsely accusing me and others and for being overly righteous. Shame on you young man! Shame on you! Go on now, go back to your yeshiva and speak to your rabbi and have him explain to you what the punishment for causing a widow to call out to God is!
33. Calling all MDs, especially female ones
Yossi ,   Levittown, US   (11.09.09)
There are many medications available to treat people such as Mr. Yosef (using the term "rabbi" is an insult to our religion). If the antidepressants don't work, try the Alzheimer's drugs. If all else fails, there's always GENERAL ANESTHESIA and/or taxidermy!
34. Feminist movement screwd up the world
usa   (11.09.09)
35. TO #18 Abe Abeowitz
Marwan ,   Amman, Jordan   (11.09.09)
u're absolutely right: i can't name one "honor-killing" in israel... but that's only because when jewish guys abuse and kill their girlfriends, it has nothing to do with honor... it mostly has to do with drinking, gambling, drugs or money-related issues! :)
36. #32 I publicly apologize if I hurt you
Shalom   (11.09.09)
I didn't mean you personally. I assumed, albeit incorrectly, that all of the Wall Women are not orthodox but wives from Reform movement. I and many others would never in our wildest dream believe that there is even 1 orthodox woman among this group because it’s not at all an orthodox Jewish custom. Besides, Orthodox Jews would know better than liken themselves with Rashi or his daughters. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef shlit"a is a great person and has his reasons for saying that women not act this way. If you personally feel differently and you are indeed an orthodox woman, why don't you discuss it directly with him? What do your “orthodox” sons and son-in-laws say regarding your donning a talit and tefillin?
37. #31 I was here much before you!
Shalom   (11.09.09)
38. #32 In addition to my apology I just submitted,
Shalom   (11.09.09)
I'd like to add that an orthodox person would know better than punish or curse those who don’t realize you are a widow or don’t agree with your lifestyle. Would you also have G-d punish Rabbi Ovadia Yosef shlit”a for calling you and the rest of this group “stupid”? May you have continued good health, happiness and nachat from your children and grandchildren.
39. #38 do be kind enough 2 stand down & b silent!
(11.09.09)
You really should go and read what the Chofetz Chaim has to say about guarding your tongue. It seems to me that you are arrogant, insolent and insouciant and also a bit of a presumptuous churl and yet after insulting women in general you now presume to come and teach me a lessons! Me kol melamdai hiskalti (from all my teachers I have learned) meaning that one must be open to learning even from a child as young as 2 years. However those who wish to teach others must be of impeccable character and you young man fail on that count! Please do go read what I wrote in #32 again...I did not curse you I merely called to God to deliver your appropriate punishment for not guarding your tongue, for falsely accusing me and other women of not being up to standard and because you are overly righteous. I see that you are overly righteous because despite ur apology you are not really contrite you are still attempting to prove me wrong and to shame me. Remember young man: When God created the world the last thing he created was woman and so we learn that woman is the crown of God's creation. You need to learn to respect women! And you need to learn humility! Your behaviour is shameful to all Jews! Stand down young man and be silent!
40. "Woman of the Wall" are not devout, they just want attention
Aviva ,   Jerusalem   (11.09.09)
They always bring the media with them for their public displays. Their intention is to provoke, not to pray. Those who bring up Rashi'a daughter's are completely missing the point. Pious women in previous generations who lay tefillin and wore talis did so in private, as an act of devotion between themselves and G-D. They would have never dreamed of showing off in public. I am an Orthodox woman (dati leumi, not haredi) and these women are extremely rude and insulting to those around them.
41. weird
Michael ,   Haifa   (11.09.09)
...given the fact that he himself wears dresses....
42. It does look odd for women to wear skullcaps until
Rivkah   (11.09.09)
you consider they are wearing them to imitate what they admire. Moses said in Deuteronomy that it is an abomination for a woman to wear that which pertains to men. But is religious garb something that pertains to men only? I think not since the last chapter of Proverbs gives a clue on what male exclusive garments pertain to. The mother of King Lemuel was quoted by King Solomon in warning men not to give their strength to women. Strong's Concordance defines strength in that verse as "army, defenses, fortifications." So the military garments males wear should not be the same as what women wear. It is possible that priestly garments are exclusively male attire, except that their are prophetesses or priestesses such as Huldah which might open the priestly garments to women. Deborah the Judge had a man Barak run the military and she did not don military garments herself or that would have been stated in the Bible. Queen Elizabeth II of Britain used to wear military garments to the Trooping of the Colors Ceremony each year until I told her about these verses. She decided not to wear the military uniform that pertains to men in the Bible, seeking to be approved of God. If the prayer shawl and skullcap do pertain only to men in the opinion of many, then women should cover themselves with a big scarf to avoid offending people. God will know the sacrifice and bless them for what is in their hearts.
43. To #14
Philip ,   Afula, Israel   (11.09.09)
Referring to Ovadia Yoseph as the stone age clown.Certainly not to the pioneering women, who have to put up with so much sexist nonsense.I much respect and admire them for the courage of their convictions.May they go from strength to strength.
44. #40 Well said Aviva.
(11.09.09)
If these women were as righteous as Rashi's daughter, who'd dare to talk against them? Do these women fast weekly from Shabbat to Shabbat like Rashi's daughters? Doubt it! Be careful, Aviva, keep far, far away from these miserable feminists hiding in prayer shawls. They are out to curse you and have G-d punish you and anyone else standing in their way, like they did to Shalom and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef for “shaming them and for falsely accusing them and other women of not being up to standard and because you are overly righteous.” I, for one, do not believe that Mrs. 16 is Orthodox. At best she’s Modern Orthodox which is a far cry from being Orthodox. The fact that they are so rude to a Rabbi and full of arrogance towards all those who are against them proves this point.
45. I wonder....
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (11.09.09)
if God really cares who prays where wearing what. If He/She wants to hear from me real fast and most sincerely, it only takes a tornado warning. What I wear for any one of those sessions depends on the time of day the wind kicks up. Considering the constant changes in the universe, He/She doesn't seem to stand too much on ancient traditions and rituals and I wonder for whose benefit we attach so much importance to any of them. Are they really something God requires or are they something someone cooked up just to see how many people they can talk into "minding," especially when attaching a few dire warnings. One bunch kneels, another one is spread-eagled on the floor, still another one bows. Well, yours truly, be it in jeans, skirts or nightgowns, rolls up into a ball, cowers, head tucked between knees, behind the washing machine in the basement and promises future sainthood just to send that tornado somewhere, anywhere, else, Obviously and this far, there have been no objections to my rituals or get-ups :-)
46. Stuck in the 1700's
Gershon ,   Toronto   (11.09.09)
It amazes me that these orthodox rabbi's believe that their religious practices, that began only a few hundred years ago, think that they were standing on Har Tzion when Moses received the commandments. Who are they to say how Judaism should be practised. There worship is merely an INTERPRETATION of what prayer should be. Remember the story of the Baal Shem Tov about the boy who blew his flute in shul because he didn't know how to pray. It was said his prayer went straight to heaven because of it's purity. Rabbi Ovadia could only dream his prayers were that pure. No matter how you pray, if your prayer is heartfelt it will be heard, whether Rabbi Ovadia thinks so or not.
47. and Devora was Judge over Israel
(11.09.09)
I suppose that had the good Rabbi and his TBer minions been there they would have felt threatened that G-d spoke directly to her!
48. #42
P ,   Philadelphia   (11.09.09)
You claim to have told Queen Elizabeth to change her clothes and she did it?! It is not the role of women to demean themselves out of fear of offending people, any more than men should cover themselves because someone could manage to be offended. Society is composed of both women and men, and people can be offended for very silly reasons. Let people wear what they like.
49. Women Are Supposed to be Different
Yonatan ,   USA   (11.09.09)
It has always been my understanding that women in Judaism are not considered less equal than men. In fact they are considered holier due to the fact that they can give birth. They are not required to pray, wear tallit, or teffilin because they do not need to do such things. It is as if the holiness brought on by these mitzvot are not required by them because they already have this holliness built in. You can't change the hard realities that women and men are different and are supposed to be that way. To suggest that women need to wear tallit, kipot, and tefilin is to suggest they are only as holy as men when in truth they are much hollier. Likewise there are certain mitzvot only a woman should do and a man should not. Those women who choose to wear this men's religious garb are not only belittling their extra hollines they are in fact violatting the prohibition of wearing the garments of the opposite sex. Why don't they just embrace the special holy status imparted on them by virtue of the fact they are born women. They should embrace their holliness. This is the truth as I learned it from many wise and Torah observant men and women.
50. Unbelievable
Dara ,   Rosh Ha Aiyn   (11.09.09)
It's unbelievable how people are so quick to judge. Who cares who is Orthodox, Secular, Modern Orthodox etc. Who cares if woman chooses to partake in ceremonies, rituals or prayers that are usually related with men. If they are not hurting any one, it's for none of us to judge, no matter how much of a spiritual leader he or she may be. By the same token I don't believe that a person's connection to G-d or lack there of is the right way to judge a person. People should be judged on character to be decent and kind, wise, understanding and patient is a lot more difficult then to be judgmental and cruel, no matter what kind of Rabbi they may be. Disappointing that a man like this, and yes a Rabbi is just a man should be so lacking rather than to teach a guide. After all this is the station in life he has chosen. I could care less how he or any other man judges me, I know who I answer to. It's too bad some men don't realize that women don't owe any explanation to any man.
51. #47 "And Devorah was a Judge in Israel"
Aviva ,   Jerusalem   (11.09.09)
So what? Devorah (and Miriam, Yael, Huldah, Chanah, Bruriah, etc.) have nothing to do with these phony show-offs. If you want to compare them to women from Tanach, there are always Athaliah and Izevel.
52. Liberals destoy Israel, USA, religion due to feminist agenda
Robert Blum ,   New Albany USA   (11.10.09)
The religious obligations of women are different, however not less important than those of men. I agree with the rabbi. It was because only the women were not worshippers of the original golden calf that requires men to wear teffilin (phylacteries) and pray in a quorum (minyan). Tsitsit (religious fringes), are required of men, not of women. Women light Shabbos candles. Men do not. Women have certain, monthly obligations due to being required to go to the Mikvah (ritual bath), for spiritual cleanliness from a condition of spiritual uncleanliness from the mensus cycle. Obligations are different. It is not a matter of the rabbi "knowing" on an individual basis the character or personality of the women in WOW. Those attributes are irrelevant and fall far below the merit of their performing the mitzvot (religious deeds) inherent to the obligations they as women must perform, including NOT performing deeds meant for men.
53. 40 Aviva, Jerusalem: When in Israel I went to the Kotel and
Rivkah   (11.10.09)
took photos from a distance of women praying at the wall. Some were sitting and others, standing. I can assure you they were not showing off. The devotion in prayer of the women was so touching I want to have some of the photographs made into woven blankets for furniture coverings to remind me of Jerusalem. I have chairs and a couch already covered in photo throws of the Kotel and David's Citadel and the walk outside David's tomb and a staircase David walked on in the Citadel. I did not see women at the Kotel wearing skullcaps or prayer shawls. Some were silently weeping their prayers and hopes to the Lord, bent over in a chair, at one with the Lord of the Universe. Denying these prayer warriors that I saw the "tent" prayer shawl may be a false humility instead of a following of what the Lord wants to see in those in prayer with Him. I am just a woman while you are an Orthodox woman. So what may be rude and insulting to you may not be to me. The women I saw and walked among and past at the Kotel were in prayer, mostly. If it is rude to ignore someone when in prayer, then that is rude. But Orthodox men are rude in that way when anything interupts their prayers. They simply don't allow interuptions. King David and Daniel in the Bible prayed in private and in public. Rabbi Yehoshua said to go into a "closet" which is the prayer shawl denied to women, it appears. The Orthodox Jewish women I have met in Israel were very polite to me, as were the Orthodox Jewish women in America and in school long ago. Not too many people are polite in this world so that is noticeable. Well done. I must say to you, well done.
54. 'Want equality'. He's joking, right?
strictly ok   (11.10.09)
We women are superior in so many ways. Why do this particular bunch of girls (AND other weird groups with the same inferiority complex) feel the need to prove it with silly 'we'll show 'em' antics. I find their childish 'me got muscles' behaviour embarassing, completely unnecessary and very insulting to me as a woman. We don't need to prove anything, certainly not by Purim like exhibitionism, and of course they look so stupid, which is the worst part, and is so degrading. Change your leaders, girls, they're using you. Unbelievable that you don't see it. The other women's groups too are being used by their leaders (for their own exhibitionist needs) and their blind followers need to wake up and smell the coffee. You don't need them, got it?
55. Way to go Avivah. So sorry you need to waste your time
(11.10.09)
on these cross dressing sad exhibitionists. They should have the guts to tackle their real problem which is their low self image. Maybe they didn't have enough dressing up time in kindergarten. Maybe Pa and Ma favoured the boys in their family. Really sad specimens, the lot of them, and so unattractive, which as we all know, is the real crux of the matter. Cross dressing is certainly not the answer... ahem..girls...
56. I dont believe that women actually belong
WOW??? lol   (11.10.09)
to something idiotically named WOW. Bunch of frustrated Barbies...or Kens...lol. What stupid girls you are. Love, Cindy doll.
57. #51 wow! didn't know u & other TBers were blessed w/Nevua!
(11.10.09)
LOL right @ u!
58. Title: Rabbi Yosef Deems Feminist Women Off the Wall
(11.10.09)
59. 45 M.Hartley: Rabbi Yehoshua says to enter your
Rivkah   (11.10.09)
"closet" when praying: that is the tent of the prayer shawl. So it is important to observe that tradition. The prayer shawl has four corners, as does the earth. It has tassles of blue threads the color of the heavens or the Israeli flag on the four corners of the "tent". Moses told the followers of Y'hovah to sew blue threads into the four corners of their garments. if you have done this, then perhaps the garment you are wearing, whatever it is, could be a prayer shawl or tent. A Jewish tv program showed women pulling their jackets over their heads to create a prayer tent. Long hair is also a woman's covering, so if the woman has long hair, that is a prayer tent of sorts for her.
60. Rabbi ovadia, the women expert
Lobo   (11.10.09)
Isn't this called a womanizer in modern language...! Ovadia Yosef " stupid women who come to the wall ". After reading the article, I came to the conclusion that this Yosef Ovadia is the full fledged stupid one. A ) for his blanket statement, women are stupid! B ) according to 'herr' Ovadia,a woman is "obligated" to perform a kidduch and " obligated " to listen to a man doing it. C ) deviant women who serve equality MUST be condemned; by you ? you're a hell of a role model. D ) Yizhar Hess response is inaccurate; Ovadia may be a talmid, but a 'chacham' far from it.
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