What happened at mosque?
Jonathan Dahoah Halevi
Published: 12.11.09, 17:21
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1. well said
alexi   (11.12.09)
Goldstone bothers me on 3 counts- 1) his lack of cross examination even for a fact finding mission. 2) Chinkin should have been disqualified for any fair-minded chairman 3) When goldstone asked why some of gold's information was shown to him before, it betrays him again. How can he write a report when he knows there is other information out there. I have no doubt, that if israel ever conducts its own investigation it will find the following- 1) many of goldstone's witnesses were not candid 2) Goldstone did not adequately cover hamas 12000 rocket provocation. 3)Goldstone's methodology was weak 4) Chinkin and travers should have been disqualifed, one for bias, the other for incompetence. 5) Goldstone's conclusions will be rejected and goldstone's legal reputation destroyed. His report is a blood libel against the state of israel.
2. Everything about any mosque starts with falsehoods, that is
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (11.12.09)
the nature of the koran.
3. When one is out to produce and spread a blood libel, facts
Roni ,   Kibbutz Ha'ogen   (11.12.09)
don't matter. What the Council that sent him and what members of his commission set out to do was just that, produce and spread a blood libel against the Jews of Israel. It is that simple.
4. Mosque attack
Ari ,   NYC USA   (11.12.09)
It would have made no difference had Israel cooperated with the commission. The Commission was born in sin and was motivated by a political agenda rather than concern for human rights. It's members were comprised of those who's minds were made up before seeing any evidence. Any cooperation with the Commission would grant legitimacy to an illagitimate body.
5. Some judge
Sarah B ,   New York / Saviyon   (11.12.09)
Obviously, Goldstone jumped on the story before the facts were available; which calls into question his judicial perspective (he has none). That notwithstanding, doesn't Goldstone realize that in caching weapons in a mosque, Hamas made it a legitimate military target?
6. :: To all those war crime deniers...
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.12.09)
Question: Have the IDF committed war crimes? Answer: Yes. The IDF use Palestinian civilians as human shields, this *is* a war crime, there is no two ways about it. The many ways that the IDF use Palestinian civilian as human shields, to hide behind, are as such: 1) The ‘neighbor procedure’; this is when a Palestinian civilian is forced by the IDF to enter a neighboring house to see if there are armed militants inside or it the house is rigged with explosives. Presumably if the civilian is shot or blown up the IDF then know the house is unsafe!! 2) The IDF take over a civilian home (eg: for use as a snipers nest or command point) and force the family to remain on the ground floor. The logic is that militants are less likely to attack this position of they know Palestinian civilians are present and the IDF are using them as human shields. 3) Palestinians (usually children) are positioned in front of or tied to IDF military equipment to prevent damage or attack. The classic example is the picture of a Palestinian child tied to the front of an IDF jeep to protect it from stone throwers. The above are just 3 examples of one instance where the IDF committed a specific war crime. It should also be noted that these examples are not isolated incidents committed by a few ‘bad apples’. This immoral and cowardly practice was so prevalent within the IDF that the Israel high court ruled that such practice was illegal (the IDF argued that it was ‘necessary’!) however since that ruling the IDF have continued to use innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields. The Goldstone report documents such a war crime: “The Palestinian men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli forces repeatedly forced a man to enter a house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding.” Aside from the Goldstone report we also have reports from Human Rights Orgs, video footage, newspaper reports, testaments from IDF soldiers themselves in regard to this war crime. To sum up for the war crime deniers: this is just *one* example of a war crime that the IDF has committed.
7. Only Moslems are allowed to kill Moslems
Moshavnik   (11.12.09)
How many Moslems have been blown up in mosques by their fellow Moslems? Was any of these cases ever investigated?
8. A problem remains
Leon ,   San Diego CA   (11.12.09)
Goldstone claims to have witnessed the removal of exploded IDF ordnance from the site of the mosque. The material could have been planted by Hamas (probably was), of course, but the article does not deal with this head-on, which is a weakness. The case the author makes against Goldstone is good, but largely circumstantial, not based on the evidence (or lack thereof) allegedly found at the site. This will give Israel-bahers too much leeway to cry "Whitewash!"
9. author is mistaken
jl   (11.12.09)
This is a sloppily written article. Two main problems among many others: 1.the Golstone report DID accuse Hamas of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The author's credibility is diminished when he says it didn't. 2.the fact that there are pictures of weapons in the Salah a-Din mosque doesnt mean that were weapons in the Maqadmah mosque.
10. :: To all those war crime liers...
Gatty Mroves ,   Pairfart   (11.12.09)
11. Truth suffers under the umbrella of intimadation
Galut ,   Selah   (11.12.09)
Hamas has in the past used intimadation to manipulate its internal politics....if you are a potential witness in Gaza you know there is a big potential for retrobution... simply put if you have the proberbial Gun at your or your familys head...will you tell the truth or what the gun holder want you to say....
12. Re- 6. :: To all those war crime deniers...
Galut ,   Selah   (11.12.09)
if indeed it happens then it should be prosecuted - use of children and civilians as a shield is wrong.... but at the same time it is a known fact that the hamas and hezbulah fighters make a regular practice of using Human shields ...yet folks like yourself down play or completly ignore those facts.... if some one sees a IDF putting children on the front of thier vehicals in a operation... get a picture ...turn it in...even I would condem it.....just be sure they aren't transporting them out of harms way...
13. Goldstone is a good Jew ... Hold your guns!
RBJ ,   Bedroom   (11.12.09)
I know some of you might be outraged by the title of my comment but don't be hasty. Only smart people among you might understand this. I didn't read the Goldstone report, seemed not worth the effort, though I managed to read sizable summaries of it. And I gotta tell you, he screwed Hamas big time. This man went into Gaza, 6 months after the "Crime" to investigate! 6 months, why not wait 6 years! He took every fact, opinion, lie, rumor, testimony Hamas has to offer. Crammed all those sad and laughable things into a report, that was intended to be so partial that every decent - even Arabs - human beings could recognize that. He did that on intention, but why was that his intention? Guess what? It was to disqualify the report itself! and Make everyone happy especially the loser party aka Hamas and Co. We all know that tragic and miserable acts happen in any war, whither it in Serbia, Kosovo, Darfur, Sirilanka, Gaza or Georgia. At the end of the day this is is a war or rather life not a game! That's what happen in a real war! People lose limbs and body parts, people burn, that's not a joke. It doesn't feel good at all! and often civilians are who pay the bill! No joke about that. Goldstone would relay on testimonies of "witnesses" after months of the events and ignore various videos and Statistics by Israel. Why is that! He just wants to condole the loser in the game.. i.e say things like you were not that bad, nobody is laughing at you, you will be given a decent way to proclaim your surrender. Imagine a scenario, I come to tell you that the police broke into my house, broke my nose and some of the officers insulted my girl friend and called her racist names and spat at my kid. They also toke my computer PC and a lot of possession. After some serious investigation, it turned out that the girl friend was actually a paid prostitute, the kid was my nephew. And the question that has to be asked now after uncovering all those fact/lies, is was my nose broken on purpose or because I resisted the police and wanted to escape? It is true that my nose is broken? but I lied a lot, and so my testimony is challenged.
14. you said it all Halevi!. "Gaza" mosque
observer   (11.12.09)
stressing that again; "Gaza" mosque in besieged Gaza.
15. #6 lying sack
Dabosshog   (11.12.09)
It is so pathetic to read such trash. I read your stupid drevil. Then I reseached it. Nothing not a picture or story of such nonsense. U have never been there and you know nothing about what goes on there. watch your back
16. goldstone and mosques
mohson   (11.13.09)
The US attorney is seizing the asset of 4 mosques in New York and texas as being fronts for an iranian bank whose monies fund iranian nuclear and terror. And Goldstone and his chinkin committee found nothing in the few mosques that they visited in gaza, no weapons,no nothing. Was I born yesterday?? Chinkin and goldstone tried to give hamas the break as they support' resistance groups' and chinkin is well known for this. Goldstone was bowled over by hamas smiles and welcoming and showed no skepticism. That is why he did not shake the witnesses. Goldstone is a disgrace period. His report is virtually worthless unless hamas stops rocket and mortar fire. So far they continue such fire, basically spitting on goldstone's report.
17. #8 The problem is not that ir was Israeli missile
Yoni ,   Sydney   (11.13.09)
but who fired it IAF or IDF. Goldstone report claims IAF deliberately targeting civilians, but IDF says it was one of theirs fired from a drone at armed gunmen at or near the entrance.
18. Socalled "Matty Groves" (#6) as
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.13.09)
per usual provides no objective confirmation to his supposed facts but simply states what will support his consistent bias. Furthermore, he does not put his (false) facts in any socio-political context because he is either incapable or just has a need to affirm his position which always amounts to criticizing the state of Israel and he does that in each and every one of his posts without fail. So now we have established that "Matty" is biased (possibly a Jew hater), ignorant and uneducated (creates facts without any objective truths and refuses to place them in context because he can't). In other words, we have to contend with a biased and ignorant fellow but, nonetheless, he serves a purpose because there are a lot more "Matty Groves" out there. So thank you, "Matty", for allowing us to have such an insider's view of our enemies. With this information which you (unkowingly) provide, we can become all the more effective in protecting and sustaining ourselves and our country!
19. Dabosshog, Matty Groves is right...
Ben Alofs ,   Bangor, UK   (11.13.09)
about the IDF using Palestinians, including children, as human shields. You said you researched it. "Nothing not a picture or story of such nonsense.." Let me give you a hand. Google "IDF using Palestinians as human shields", then press the image button and voila.. You will need to eat your words and offer a word of apology to Matty Groves.
20. To Ben (#13) and Matty:
Robert Haymond ,   Ashdod, Israel   (11.13.09)
I did google "IDF using Palestinians as human shields" and you are correct, it appears that some Palestinian children were directed to lead or stay out in front of Israeli soldiers not in Gaza but in Samaria and Judea; these incidents are currently being investigated. Now, in your biased and weighted (against Israel) "research", you fail to note that many more incidents were filmed of Hamas (in Gaza) deliberately using civilians, including children, to shield their "fighters". In fact, it was cited how Hamas does this as a matter of principle. For Hamas, unlike we Israelis, there is nothing wrong with this and, in fact, for them there is everything right. So when you both mouth off in your criticism of the IDF, why do you choose to communicate only one side of the "facts"? I think it's plain to see, however. Your socalled "indignation" has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with distorting the real picture of what is occurring between the IDF, the Palestinian populations and Hamas. You are both like snakes and deserve to be treated as such on this board.
21. #19 Been there done that and found at the top
Yoni ,   Sydney   (11.13.09)
22. #19, except it is completely and utterly different
Danny   (11.13.09)
you honestly can't tell the difference between getting a local to ask in the local dialect a neighbour to come out and deliberately hiding hiding yourself amongst civilians?
23. #7 demanding that Jews descend to moral standard of Muslims?
observer   (11.13.09)
24. :: #10
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.13.09)
I can only describe your post as childish.
25. :: Robert Haymond - #18
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.13.09)
Good of you to reply on this matter. How does placing Israel’s war crime of using human shields in a ‘socio-political context’ lessen the fact that a war crime was committed? As I point out in my comments on the “Stayin’ alive in Mideast” article (which you did not reply to) nobody who has any rudimental knowledge of the recent history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict can be ignorant to the fact that the IDF have a policy of using civilians as human shields. Robert let me nip this in the bud for you, you claim that my statement that the IDF use civilians as human shields is nothing more than “(false) facts” and that I “creates facts”. Here are the facts and you can put them in any ‘socio-political context’ that you like but it will not diminish the simple fact that the IDF commits war crimes. FACT ONE: The Israeli High Court recognized this practice and ruled that it was illegal. “Human shield’ procedure banned” Procedure used by IDF to apprehend terror suspects, by instructing Palestinian civilians to knock on their door and ask them to surrender, is illegal and violates international law, three-judge High Court panel rules Thursday http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3151383,00.h FACT TWO: Under the Fourth Geneva Convention it is prohibited, under Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention which states, "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention Israel *has* ratified the Convention which is also recognized as reflecting customary international law and therefore is binding on Israel. To sum up; It is a war crime to use civilians as human shields (fact two), the Israel High Court recognized that the IDF were in breach of this International Law (fact one). As mentioned before putting these facts in a ‘socio-political context’ does not diminish or negate the reality that the IDF committed (commits) this war crime. Robert you still claim that these two facts that I state here are “false facts” and/or that I “created” these two facts?
26. :: Ben Alofs - #19
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.13.09)
Thanks for your help in this matter.
27. :: Robert - #20
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (11.13.09)
Robert nowhere did I state that these war crimes were specific to Gaza? Either way it is irrelevant whether the IDF committed these war crimes in Gaza or the WB, a war crime is a war crime no matter where it took place. Robert why are you trying to play the ‘deflect game’. Yes the likes of Hamas have committed war crimes but how is this relevant to the fact that Israel commits war crimes? The issue here, as I stated in my first posting, is that ‘Israel’ has used civilians as human shields. Why are you trying to deflect the discussion towards Hamas’s war crimes? How does the war crimes committed by Hamas impact on the conduct of the IDF? If Hamas commits war crimes does that mean that the IDF can as well? If the IDF is has a different code of conduct from the likes of Hamas why is/was the illegal usage of civilians as human shields a *procedure/policy* of the IDF, why did the Israeli High Court have to rule that it was illegal? I would also mention that Torture (another war crime I would add) was a permitted practice within the IDF and the Israeli High Court had to rule that that too was illegal. Because the conduct of Hamas et al is irrelevant to the code of practice of the ‘most moral army in the world’. Robert I clear stated that in light of all the Goldstone/War Crimes deniers (who claim that such war crime committed by the IDF are ‘pure lies’ (a ‘distorted picture’ of the IDF if you like)) that the reality is that the IDF have committed war crime. I drew attention to one such war crime (using civilians as human shields) and proved that such a practice exists and that this was recognized by the Israeli High Court. Simply put; trying to slander my ‘intent’ does not diminish or lessen the fact that such IDF war crimes actually took place. Or to put it another way; you have done nothing to disprove my statement that the IDF have committed a war crime (using human shields) nor have you put such a war crime in a ‘socio-political context’ that would in any way justify this war crime. Now Robert this is a very simple question I will ask you: has the IDF committed a war crime by using Palestinian civilians as human shields?
28. To Matty Groves: you're welcome.
Ben Alofs ,   Bangor   (11.13.09)
Nice nom de plume by the way. 'Liege and Lief' was Fairport's best and Sandy Denny remains unforgettable.
29. Matty Groves
Galut ,   Selah   (11.13.09)
Whether or not your info about IDF is Correct - your lack of condemnation of Hamas Tatics of using human shields demostrates a glaring bias on your part... activly using human shields by any organization is wrong.....and should be delt with... by not condeming the use of humanshields on the part of hamas only adds encouragement to hamas to continue the practice.... it is legitamate to lift up problems in the IDF but for petes sake don't create a condoning atmosphere that allows hamas to perpitrate its terror activtivties while Israel is required to tie its hands....
30. GazaReport
Alf   (11.13.09)
If we hadn't been so foolhardy we would have participated in the report from the beginning to counter any false accusations. To do so only after the fact reflects on the negligence and incompetance of our PM. and FM. Perhaps they are really not smarter than everybody else.
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