Terrorism and resistance are two different concepts, they even contradict with each other in my opinion. There are many ways the Palestinian people can use to resist the Israeli occupation that cannot be stopped by the military presence or the fence. Civil disobedience is one form of resistance, and its a very effective one! Mahatma Gandhi used it against the english empire to end 150 years of occupation. Stoning the Israeli soldiers in the west bank can be another form of resistance that cannot be stopped! The whole point of resistance is not to kill Israelis, but to provoke them, so they overreact (as in the last cast lead op). The only main difference that Hamas used terror, not resistance. However, we are not seeing ANY kind of resistance in the west bank, so cant we conclude that the Palestinian leadership decided to negotiate, not to resiste?. In relation to Abbas, i think you are misreading his position. Abbas has shown a lot of flexibility in relation to the "exchange of lands" between both sides in which Israel will annex the Jewish settelements in the west bank. In addition, this is what negotiations is all about, to make compromises from both sides so what he says now does not mean that it cannot be changed it the future! Regarding his preconditions to stop expanding the settelments before resuming negotiatiions, i think Israel's best ally (US) is asking for the same thing as well as the EU and the rest of the world! In addtion, settlements on occupied territory are considered illegal under international law, so i personally think that this "precondition" is a very reasonable request! Peace is the objective, not the negotiations itself, and there is no point to continue talking (for the sake of talking) and behave in a totally different way. Finally, Israel should understand that Abbas and Fatah will be facing elections within six months, which can explain a lot of their recent announcements as their popularity depends on the peace process to a large extent.

THE " Self Hating Jew ", SHOULD INVITE HIS COUSIN #1 MOHAMMED FOR A VISIT AND ENJOY YOUR " SELF HATING LIFE AND HOSPITALITY ". BUT YOU MUST LAY DOWN THE GROUND RULES TO MOHAMMED: #1..NO SUICIDE BELTS ALLOWED WITHOUT A NOTE FROM YOUR MOM. #2.. ONLY SEMI-AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ALLOWED -- NO FULL AUTOMATICS ALLOWED. #3.. NO KASSEM ROCKETS ALLOWED IN CARRY ON LUGGAGE. LASTLY, YOU TWO MUST BEHAVE YOURSELVES LIKE THE ISLAMOS THAT YOU ARE.

You think that Israel can continue to keep a blockade on Gaza, and annex all of West Bank. You have to be a kidding me. Only the far right in Israel would believe this. Which I'm afraid Israel is dangerously becoming consumed by. The U.S. much more the international community will not accept this. It needs to be condemned, with action not words!! Obama or somebody soon is going to have to set Israel straight before it is too late. Israel has gone mad!!

Do Arab countries allow Palestians to move to their countries? How does it work? I was under the impression that Arab countries will not allow Palestinians to become citizens of their respective countries.

<"Matty": Can you explain how Ettinger is "fudging" the facts?> I’ll do one better I will show you that two key ‘facts’ that Ettinger states are incorrect. Point 5 in the above article Ettinger stated: “A September 2006 World Bank survey of education in Judea, Samaria and Gaza documented a 32% distortion of Arab births by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics. According to the Bank, the Arab demographic decline resulted from a drop in fertility and a rise in emigration.” This is the quote from that survey (see post #42 for the link): “135. The total population of West Bank and Gaza has been estimated by Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) to be 3.7 million in 2005, [...]. However, population projections have recently been adjusted downwards to take into account much lower than expected inward migration of Palestinians due to the second Intifada. The latest population growth figure is 3.3 percent per annum down from 3.8 percent in 1997. Some questions, however, remain about the accuracy of these population projections. A recent demographic study by the Harvard School of Public Health estimates that the population of the Gaza Strip was 1.29 million in late 2005, which is almost exactly 100,000 less than the PCBS projection for this year (Harvard, 2005).” Nowhere in the World Bank report does it mention a 32% distortion of Arab births, it does mention a discrepancy in ‘projected’ estimates (as stated above) but not in actual (live) figures/estimates. You will also note that this World Bank report is in relation to ‘Education’ not a report specifically on the Palestinian population stats. You would think that Ettinger would use more specific reports on the Palestinian population rather than the ones he mentions/uses if he wanted to present a more accurate argument. Point 9 in the above article: “The Judea and Samaria Arab population of 1.55 million – and not 2.5 million as claimed by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics – was documented in December 2008: a 66% distortion!”. While Ettinger does not state where this discrepancy was ‘documented’ all other sources quote the WB population in 2008-2009 as: World Factbook: 2,461,267 (WB only) World Bank: 3.84m for Gaza and the WB, minus approx 1.55m for Gaza equals 2.29m for the WB. Aside from Ettinger nobody is quoting 1.55 million as the Palestinian population of the WB. Robert you are well read and knowledgeable what figure do you put on the Palestinian population in the WB? I have proven my statement insomuch as I have cited credible sources that contradict Ettinger's ‘facts/claims’. Robert the only confidence you will attain in a conclusion is if you verify the facts for yourself. Compare Ettinger's ‘facts/claims’ against the sources, and the info/stats that they reference, to which I have cited and make up your own mind. In short Robert I don’t have to ‘convince’ you or anyone else I just have to offer a different point of view. It is up to you and everyone else to make up their own minds.

#63.. will , charlotte, nc YOU HAVE NOT GOT A CLUE ! EGYPT IS BLOCKADING THE GAZA. THERE ARE U.S. TROOPS ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHAT''S YOUR BEEF ? JUST PLAIN STUPID ARROGANCE ! WHO ARE YOU TO TEACH ISRAEL MANNERS WHEN YOU TOOK TEXAS FROM MEXICO, ----NOT NICE ! I GUESS THAT WAS ONLY AMERICAN RIGHT WINGERS TOO, EH ! IT SEEMS YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT, AND THEN PREACH TO ISRAEL NOT TO DO WHAT YOU GUYS DID WITH TEXAS. TEXAS IS HUGE .... " will , charlotte, nc ".....THIS ONLY MEANS THAT YOU STEAL OTHERS PEOPLE'S LAND BIG-TIME ..... YOU ARE A BIG CROOK AND A HUGE LIAR.. AND TALK ABOUT BLOCKADES, HOW IS YOUR WALL BARRIER ALONG THE MEXICAN BORDER DOING ? NOW THAT'S A BIG TIME BLOCKADE, BUT IT SEEMS THAT " will " MUST HAVE MISSED IT.

If Abbas has shown a lot of flexibility in relation to the "exchange of lands", can you then explain me why he was so categorical, that means almost comtemptuous, with Olmert's pretty generous proposal of lands exchange in november 2008, a proposal that went even further than that of Barak in Barak 2000? (You find the map here: http://www.fmep.org/maps/redeployment-final-status-options/v18n6-map-westbankprojection.jpg/image_view_fullscreen). Of course Olmert was already a weak leader on a losing path, of course it was only a draft of exchange, and not the final agreement itself, but not even respond to Olmert and not even consider this draft as a basis for further talks seems to confute your belief that Abbas and his Fatah are so willing to compromise on the matter. His "adamanten" position on the settlements freeze issue makes only sense if he's also able to give the impression that he and his party are ready to discuss the central issues of the peace process with the will to compromise and not only to put precondition after precondition, in a kind of race for the increases in the stakes ... Regards.

1. I am not a follower of Yoram Ettinger and don't keep a record of what he thinks or writes and, honestly, I don't really care (sorry, Mr. Ettinger). But if your criticism of self-interest based politics is honest, you should have criticized Clinton (and many other Western politicians) first. Have you? Can you provide me some links? 2. The UNSC is not a moral instance but a political organ of a mostly immoral, antisemitic organization, consisting considerably of dictatorships---in 1967 even more than today. It is ironic that you quote it in order to support your arguments. 3. Jordan is not an example of giving away land and getting peace in return, so it doesn't support your thesis in any way. Considering the enmity of Egyptians towards Israel (the cold war was much friendlier), Egypt is also hardly an example, even on the most formal level. However, if you get into details (history, geopolitics, geography, demography...), you'll see that Egypt cannot serve as a model for peace with the Palestinians, no matter how we might wish it. Egypt's Sadat accepted peace with Israel, after having militarily lost the Yom Kippur War, in order to save his regime. He secured American support for it by switching from the pro-Soviet to Western bloc, but was expelled from the Arab League. Second, Sinai is mostly deserted area, several times bigger than Israel, and sparsely populated only by ethnic Bedouins, who tend to be loyal to the state no matter who runs it. They are among the most loyal IDF soldiers, for example. Third, Sinai is completely demilitarized and the peace is being monitored by the US, making a land attack by Egypt practically impossible. Etc. BTW, returning Kuneitra to Syria didn't advance the peace one inch.

Sorry mate i could not open the link, but anyway, one thing i can be sure of, that the details of the negotiations on that level should be confidential and there might be a lot of details that both of us (ordniary people) are not aware of. Moreover, i dont represnt Abbas here, but i am surprised that non of the Israelis i spoke with realize that the Palestinians has already made a massive compromise by accepting the UN resolution 242 as basis of the peace process, which means that the Palestinians already compromised 80% of what they consider their home land (exactly as you do) so as we are talking about peace, it can be useful to put our selves in the other party position! Finally, this is what the negotiations are made for, i am sure that you are fully aware that politicians usually say things in public and do something else afterward, so what Abbas says is not a Bible that cannot be changed!

1- Sorry but why should i crticize Clinton???!!!!! are you seriouse????!!!!. is this how you understood my original comment that the peace process should be discussed from an ethical perspective ONLY!!!!!!!! And for your info, Clinton has spoken about the ethical need to make peace several times while here in Ynet, i dont recall reading any article that discussed the Issue from an ethical point of view. And i am not sure what link are you asking for, if you want to see the author's previous article just google the title "Let's leverage the good demographic news" and you will be able to read it. 2- "The UNSC is not a moral instance but a political organ of a mostly immoral, antisemitic organization, consisting considerably of dictatorships---in 1967 even more than today. It is ironic that you quote it in order to support your arguments" Once again, you misunderstand my original comment. I did not crticize talking about self interest, but i criticized ignoring the ethics in all previous articles. When i mentioned the UNSC i was not talking about ethics here but answering your points at #17 (in which you talked about the risks of making peace with Arabs), i was talking about UN resolution which is the basis of current negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians which hopefully will lead to permenant peace (which is the ethical thing to do). And by the way, i hope you can prove that UNSC is antisemtic. 3- once again, i was answering your comment #17 and tried to prove to you that the peace with Jordan and Egypt (inspite of being cold peace) provided security to Israel from both sided which is the main Israeli concern. I also noticed that you confuse "unilateral withdrawal from some occupied territory" with "peace" so all of your examples about Lebanon and Syria and Gaza are not valid as Israel has not signed a peace treaty with any of them (hence you cannot blame peace)! Finally, if i can suppot my original thesis and ethical argument by providing evidence from a self-interest perspective that Israel should make peace, i consider this as a smart way of conducting an argument.

some of the needed tools to verify or negate Ettinger myself. I am not a demographer. So I thank you.

Without going into (this Talkback) the politics, ethics, history, or possible solutions to this problem, I refer readers to this very comprehensive Website: http://www.israeldemography.com/news.html It contains a wide variety of substantiated material, sources, & presentations (including reknowned demographer Bennett Zimmermann, & Ettinger's material). There was a similar Website called PAdemographics, which is no longer registered, and a few others containing census statistics, going back to Israeli censuses of the 80's. There are a few issues that are manifestly clear: 1. Much of the PA statistics were based on PROJECTED numbers of births & return ("immigration" of people considered "Palestinians" (3rd generation "refugees"...) from overseas, not actual births or immigrants. These population movements never eventuated; 2. Much of the numbers were vastly exaggerated to obtain foreign aid, based on a per capita basis. Much of this aid probably wound up in numbered Swiss accounts or was used to fund terror; 3. A cursory statistcal analysis that accepts (from multiple sources) an offsetting birth vs. death rate of 3.0%-4.0% (usually stated as ~3.2%-3.6%) means that the claimed MORE THAN DOUBLING of populations in both J&S/WB and Gaza since the Israeli censuses of the late 1980's - early 1990's means that over ~15 years, there was a population increase of OVER 7% per year IN EXCESS of births & deaths. From where? How? This is physically impossible, would be noticed, & can be correlated against building permits, visas, border statistics, available food, employment, & any other cross reference you can imagine. Of course, the stridency of the Loony Left & "ProPal Peace" media & willingness to "bury" opposing views also helps here; 4. For consideration: Pre 67 Israel had ~3.0-3.5 Million population, including Israeli Arabs. The gross area was ~20,000 km/2. * The Negev is designated as 55%-66% of Israel = ~13,000 km/2 (Google "Negev" or "Galilee") * The Galilee is ~2000 km/2 - say, a total of ~15,000 km/2 (conservatively) Subtract the sparely populated Negev & Galilee-very optimistically, 500,000 (then). So, in the very narrow, highly urbanised, densely built triangle between Haifa, Ashkelon, & Jeruslem (~4000-5000 km/2 ), there were ~3 million+ people. So, the WB/J&S (4000 km/2), a largely agricultural, significantly hilly, barren area, dotted with towns & villages is supposed to hold AT LEAST 2.5 million Arabs? I have to get some of the stuff those people are smoking! So, for years, we have had wild eyed "Demographic Chicken Littles", running around, spouting ridiculous numbers that cannot be supported by an even superficial examination. These numbers are accepted verbatim, "multiplied", & reverberate in the echo chamber of international news organisations(all cutting costs by eliminating fact checkers & copy editors), politcally motivated NGO's, other political agendas, & generally pathetic research. The entire subject is a farce, if not a tragedy, played out on the back of people's lives. When people will really want to solve the problem, rather than using it for "Wedge politics" (that means you, your cohorts, & henchmen, Obama), a gravy train of international aid & corruption, a salve for EU Post Colonial conscience, & a diversion for Middle Eastern dictators, it will be solved VERY quickly. Until then... Never let facts get in the way of a good story!

or its enforced by Israel -specifically on its neighboring countries. 1) Jordan is 78% of Palestine Mandate 2) Jordans population is 80% Palestinian 3) Jordans Hashemite leadership are British implants- from post WW1 era, they are not natives, nor do they have historical claim to the land. They are from Mecca. 4) Hashemite kings family are a tiny minority of less than 0.1% of overall population- very easy to destabilize/undermine/overthrow. option 1) jordan . international community /USA pressures Hashemites to acknowledge Jordan as the de facto and legal Palestinian country. option 2) destabilize jordan enough to transfer (with compensation) those Israel-rejectionist palestinians. official palestinian country created- as US has done to Iraq, Israel does to Jordan.

Von de Juden und Irun Lugen - On the Jews and their Lies

BTW, next time try answering for yourself and yourself only.

According to page 8 of the World Bank Sept. 2006 report, enrolment of 6 year old to 1st grade is almost 100%. While the Palestinian Authority projected a 4% population growth rate, and therefore assumed a 24% increase in the number of 6 year old children, the World Bank examined the number of births 6 years earlier (note: 100% enrolment to 1st grade!) and determined that it declined by 8%. No 24% increase, but 8% dive, hence the 32% gap. The world bank assumes that the cause for such a decline is lowered fertility and accelerated emigration.